So far I can't see any nebulea at all, not even the bright m57. I'm sure its light pollution that's interfering with everything because I live so close to a city. There's 2 parks about 30 min away from my house that are suppose to be a lot better than my area.

Here's my big question, will I be able to see an DSO's with a 114mm reflector telescope in an area with a maximum naked eye magnitude of 5.9? Also, my eyepeice's are 10mm and 25mm (100x and 40x)... will I be able to see some nebulea with my telescope (and those eyepeices) with any detail? OR will they just appear as blue and red blobs? 

Here's a map to the sites http://cleardarksky.com/lp/BelleplainNJlp.html?Mn=telescope%20accessory

The center of the map is were I want to go... anywhere else will take to long to get to since I'm rite near atlantic city

With mag 5.9... surely.

Naked eye objects should be M42, M8 and maybe NGC 7000 if it is high in the sky. And plenty of planetary nebulae with the telescope.

For detail try M57, M27, NGC 2392, NGC 3242 and so on. Just first, try the site out with M57.

And with 114mm reflector... you won't see any color from deep sky objects. Double stars are a different matter.

Messier 27 might look something like this (so they definitely won't be stellar in any way):

And remember 4" telescope is a small telescope. It takes time and very dark skies to see detail from planetaries and usually high magnification.  

/Jake

Dan415 wrote:

So you mean it'll just look like a white blurr... with no colors? I won't be able to see any colors from any nebula with my telescope?

Human eye cannot see color from faint objects. With large apertures, you have better chance but usually just grey grey grey. Don't be looking at them bright photographs now... that's not what the eye is about,

/Jake

PS. Some of my colors with my 8":

Messier 2 / Green & blue
Messier 27 / Green
Messier 31 / Yellow
Messier 42 / Red
NGC 2392 / Blue
NGC 6210 / Blue

Dan,

I left a message in your other post about your new telescope explaining this phenomena.

The reason our eyes don't see color is because we see spontaneously, NOT time exposure. In time exposure the picture has a collection of all the light photons over a period of minutes or hours. The longer the time exposure, the brighter the object and the more detail visible. Our eyes only see in the present.

At about the 18" threshold of telescope sizes, there is enough light gathered by the telescope to see faint shades of green or pink in the brightest of nebulae (M42 in Orion).

That doesn't mean you won't have a majestic view though. Try to go to one of those parks. I have seen more galaxies with my 70mm binos than my 6" scope because my binos are more compact and easier to take with me than my 40 pound scope. So, I can take them on camping trips to the country or upstate where there is MUCH better seeing.

Also, you can spend about $80 - $90 and get a nebula filter. It won't make the nebulae brighter, it will just add contrast by blocking out the annoying light pollution. Orion's Ultablock filters are an excellent buy. I know for a fact I would have missed out on a half dozen nebulae without it.

Hope this helps.

The thing about m57 is that it's not that big and very hard to find from an urban area. Right now m20, the trifid, and m8, the lagoon nedulae are probably going to be easier to find.

Both are in Sagittarius very near each other. 

Try finding an area with an open southern exposure and wait till 11:00 or so.

As Jake mentioned, don't expect to see any color.

                                                            Dick
 

Richard7 wrote:

Right now m20, the trifid, and m8, the lagoon nedulae are probably going to be easier to find.

*cough* well I don't count those because they're pretty much invisible from here. But yeah, M8 is the main man here I suppose. M57 won't get washed away as easily as M8.

/Jake

Starwolf wrote:

Dan, I left a message in your other post about your new telescope explaining this phenomena. The reason our eyes don't see color is because we see spontaneously, NOT time exposure. In time exposure the picture has a collection of all the light photons over a period of minutes or hours. The longer the time exposure, the brighter the object and the more detail visible. Our eyes only see in the present. At about the 18" threshold of telescope sizes, there is enough light gathered by the telescope to see faint shades of green or pink in the brightest of nebulae (M42 in Orion). EDIT

There's actually more to it than that just the fact that the human eye has a rather fast "shutter speed".  Scotopic (i.e., dark adapted or night) vision is mediated by rod cells in the retina.  Since they contain only one type of light sensitive pigment (rhodopsin or visual purple), rod cells are insensitive to color.  Their functions are to produce low light level vision and to detect motion.  

The cone cells that are responsible for daytime or photopic vision are clustered in the fovea and contain less photopigment than the rod cells.  They come in three types: L (long), M (medium), and S (short).  Each has a peak sensitivity to a different range of wavelengths, which is 564-580 nm, 534-545 nm, and 420-440 nm, respectively.  These cells work together collectively, with color vision as a result.

In addition to being responsive to color, cone cells display high visual acuity and spatial resolution.  Rod cells are extremely light sensitive but have poor spatial resolution.  Since the vast majority of extended deep-sky objects are quite faint, they are perceived as being mostly colorless by the rod cells.  Because of the poor resolution of the rods, DSOs are literally faint fuzzies.  They seem fuzzy and indistinct because the rod cells have only 1/10th the resolution of the cone cells.

As far as seeing color in deep-sky objects is concerned, it certainly can be done and, in the case of bright planetary nebulae such as NGC 6572 (the Emerald Nebula) and NGC 7662 (the Blue Snowball), rather easily and with relatively small apertures.  I have seen a variety of colors in M42 (pale blue, green, pink, and "brown") on a number of occasions through apertures of 14.5 to 25 inches but only at very dark sites and only on exceptionally transparent and steady nights.  On one occasion at Cherry Springs State Park two years ago, I detected faint pink hue in parts of M8 and an even fainter pink in the emission portion of M20 through a 30" ATM Dob. 

Children often report seeing colors in DSOs much more vividly than adults.  Observers fortunate enough to visually observe through professional telescopes are duly impressed with the colors that some DSOs display.

Here's a post that I made not too long ago on this subject:

I beg to differ regarding color in deep-sky objects.  It's true that only a few of the brightest emission nebula will exhibit some color, and that's muted color, when viewed with large enough apertures under excellent conditions.  However, there are a fair number of planetary nebula that will appear as blue, aquamarine, or green (and even "raspberry") depending upon the eyesight of the observer, even with relatively small telescopes.

Here's a chart of colorful nebulae from starrynights:

Colorful Nebulae

Are you interested in observing color in nebulae? Try some of these!

Seeing colors in nebulae depends on many factors such as seeing conditions, aperture size, and magnification used. "Color" can be a very relative term, running the entire gamut from pale pastels, subdued tones, to vivid hues. Have fun!

To that list, I have to add the Homunculus Nebula that surrounds Eta Carinae.  This nebula appeared distinctly orangish to my eyes when viewed at high power through a 22" Starmaster from an excellent site in Bolivia.

Of course, there are some colorful binary and carbon stars too.

Dave Mitsky

Excellent points. Glad you explained that. I do remember seeing pale green/gray tones eminating from M42 on 1 particularly crisp clear winter night 2 years ago. At that time I was living in Horsham which was not nearly a polluted as where I am now located. All other's up to date have been gray (m27, M57, M16, M20 ect...)

When I go camping I take binos and the view from a 6.5 mag location is out of this world (no pun inteneded). I do clearly remeber seeing M87 with some orange color to it. My brother also confirmed this color. But that was down in West VA about 2 years ago. The sky down there is close to 7.0. It was unbeleievable. I don't go anywhere w/o my binos.

My area is just north of Philadelphia and my skies are about 4.5 on average. Yet, if I drive 10 minutes away to Huntingdon Valley, the skies there are about 5.7 or better. I was there 2 weekends ago for a BMAA skywatch (Bucks Montgomery Astronomical Asssoc.). They meet over at the corner of a field in Pennypack Park. It's amazing that with a 10 minute drive the skies are 1.2 mags better.  

Also, Dave, some of the objects you listed may be beyond the limit of a 114mm scope.

The starrynights nebula list was not meant as a direct reply to the OP, although most of the objects mentioned should at least be "detectable" with a 114mm aperture from an excellent dark site.  Some years ago the noted deep-sky observer Jay Reynolds Freeman observed the entire Herschel 400 list with a 55mm Vixen fluorite refractor.    

A few observers have reported seeing color in some of the planetaries on the list with scopes as small as 4" apochromats.

http://www.visualdeepsky.org/netastrocatalog/msg02601.html

But for the most part larger apertures are required for any chance of color perception.

Dave Mitsky

Starwolf wrote:

Also, Dave, some of the objects you listed may be beyond the limit of a 114mm scope.

Or not. All of those planetaries should be easy targets to a 4" telescope. If not, O-III or UHC filter will surely help.

/

Thanks a LOT dave, starwolf, and Never, I'll try a few of those nebulea tonight with the 4" telescope. With that 10" scope, think wat do u think the darkest DSO would be in about mag 5 to 5.5 skies? Is 10" view considerably differnt that in a 4" view in mag 5 night sky?

Btw, if u really want to judge my location, use this link http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/269838/an/0/page/0#269838 and go to "Galloway NJ" my house is right near that location, just at the point were orange and red mix ( about a mile SW )  

 If I get the new scope, I'll be going to batsto state park, where its suppose to be notbly better... but its about 40min from my house D: and stargazing gatherings aren't held there often. That's why I want to know if a 10" telescope is somewhat ok for my backyard ( 3 acres all open, no lgiht from houses intefere) 

Dan415 wrote:

Is 10" view considerably differnt that in a 4" view in mag 5 night sky?

I'd say it is. The darker the skies, the bigger the difference (almost). The difference between 4" and 8" is huge.

Dan415 wrote:

Btw, if u really want to judge my location, use this link

Or you could just go outside and try the limiting magnitude with naked eye yourself

Dan415 wrote:

I'm wonderign the same thing, did u useany filters to see those colors?

No, you're not supposed to use filters to see color. That's what it is about. Many nebulae show color with filter (ie Skyglow) but it not the "real" kind. 

Certain nebulae do show color just by using low magnification and dark skies.

/Jake

Dan415 wrote:

So the filter is just to make it more destinct, sharper, and stand out more? If thats the case then I should get one once I get my 10"

I suppose it can be something like this:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/jaakko.saloranta/Deepsky/UHC/UHC.html

/Jake 

From an article that mentions NGC 6891, one of the planetaries on the list of colorful nebulae:

"NGC 6891 lies at an estimated distance of 7,200 light years, and can be found two and a half degrees south of the 5th-magnitude star Rho Aquilae. The nebula is pretty small, but has a high surface brightness. This means that at magnitude 10.7 it can be seen in telescopes as small as 4.5-inch aperture. However, high magnifications are required to distinguish the tiny 12 arcseconds disk from nearby stars."

http://www.nightskyinfo.com/archive/ngc6891_6905/

Dave Mitsky

Now as promised I tried M57 with my 3" refractor less than an hour ago while looking for the comet something near M3. M57 was nearly stellar, but fairly easily visible - had to confirm it with the O-III.

This at 20x (2° 30' field). The limiting magnitude was somewhere around 4.5 or so with 35. And being a difficult naked eye object. The sky was bright enough to read Uranometria without any extra light and I could not see any deep sky objects without optical aid. The sun was 8° 55' below the horizon.

Object: Messier 57
Obs. place: Vantaa, Finland
Date: 22./23.7.2007
Bortle class: Class 5 (Suburban sky)
NE Lim.mag: 4.5^m
Background sky: 5
Seeing: 3
Transparency: 5
Sky conditions: Twilight, sun -8° below the horizon.
Weather: +11°C, humidity 87%, weak SW wind 1.8 m/s

/Jake