If the sky is really clear and the nebula is really high, can I see the Horsehead Nebula in a 10 inch f/4 reflector? I tried it once and failed but all that means is that it isn't real easy.

Thanks!

You need more than "really clear"! What you need is very good transparency and background brightness. Limiting magnitude around 6.5. Other than that, you should probably see it with UHC or H-Beta filters. Without them it will be considerably more difficult. Oh, and it won't look like a horsehead :(

I've seen it once with my 8" Orion DSE.

/Jake

JustADude wrote:

If the sky is really clear and the nebula is really high, can I see the Horsehead Nebula in a 10 inch f/4 reflector? I tried it once and failed but all that means is that it isn't real easy. Thanks!

The HorseHead is a very small very faint nonluminous dark thick dust cloud within, or just in front of a very faint emission nebula.
Provided the skies are very dark and stable so that you can get enough magnification, then you can with the help of an H-Beta Filter.  Even then, because of it's apparent size you will still have to look for it using averted vision.

The much larger neighboring flame nebula can be seen without any filter in dark stable skies. However, don't expect to be able to see it everytime you try. I have only been able to make it out a couple times.


Have A Nice __________

B33 spans 6 x 4 arc minutes so it is much bigger than the vast majority of galaxies visible to amateur astronomers.  However, it is really quite difficult to see visually.  I've only been able to observe it twice without using an H-beta filter (with 14.5 and 20 inch Starmasters on exceptional nights) and even with an H-beta filter it's not an easy task.  Think seeing black on black.

Dave Mitsky

 

DaveMitsky wrote:

B33 spans 6 x 4 arc minutes so it is much bigger than the vast majority of galaxies visible to amateur astronomers.  However, it is really quite difficult to see visually.  I've only been able to observe it twice without using an H-beta filter (with 14.5 and 20 inch Starmasters on exceptional nights) and even with an H-beta filter it's not an easy task.  Think seeing black on black. Dave Mitsky

It is even suggested to see it with the H-Beta filter it is better with a moderate to large telescope.  As in implying moderate size I am guessing around 10" to 14" of aperture.



Have A Nice __________

DaveMitsky wrote:

B33 spans 6 x 4 arc minutes so it is much bigger than the vast majority of galaxies visible to amateur astronomers.  However, it is really quite difficult to see visually.  I've only been able to observe it twice without using an H-beta filter (with 14.5 and 20 inch Starmasters on exceptional nights) and even with an H-beta filter it's not an easy task.  Think seeing black on black. Dave Mitsky

I was wondering if you credit those two viewings to the Starmaster optics? I have heard of the higher contrast gleaned from the supposedly smoother Zambuto mirrors. Have you tried and failed with similar apertures, but with mirrors of different manufacture?

Regards and clear skies,

 

Zambuto mirrors have a well-deserved reputation but I don't think it was merely a matter of optics.  The sky conditions have to be truly first class.  It just so happened on those nights I had a chance to observe with those two particular telescopes.  In the case of the night that I saw B33 without a filter through the 20", I had also seen it through a number of smaller telescopes earlier but they were all equipped with H-beta filters.  On the night I saw it sans filter through the 14.5", the only other telescope present was my 101mm Tele Vue refractor.

Making such comparisons is very difficult to do, at least on the East Coast with its variable weather, since it depends so much on a confluence of essentially unpredictable conditions and the availability of a number of telescopes.  In any case, I don't have an obsessive compulsion to constantly make equipment comparisons.  I view a telescope as a tool, not something to be evaluated.

Dave Mitsky 

I should add that the only time that I ever really found B33 easy to see was when I observed it at the 1995 Winter Star Party in the Florida Keys, where it is 15 degrees higher in the sky than in Pennsylvania, through Tom Clark's 36" Tectron Yard Scope. 

Dave Mitsky 

HELLO GUYS - now your talking about the one nebula that allows me to spend $$ on astronomy with out ?, because it's my wifes favorite, we were out on the night of the 26th of nov, i/2 way between houston & dallas in a little town called grapeland, very dark skys well any way we were out with our 12'' lx200 for the first time, our old scope was a 10'' lx50- wow what a difference of operation & price, any way again,we only had the cheap 26mm pl,that you get with the scope & believe it or not you could see the horsehead nebula, & we could not see it in the 10'' now you could'nt see head of a horse but you could see the nebula, & we used no filters, weve since ordered the filters & better eyepieces,

 thanks  for  the  forum             ANDY & TERRI

WELL I GUESS I SHOULD CLEAN THIS UP, WE DID NOT SEE B33/IT WAS M78 IM VERRY SORRY, for my exited state of mind but i am gonna see b33 / what ever it takes thats my pledge to my wife i think she wants it more than me, THANK YA'LL ALL, VERY MUCH

                                           ANDY & TERRI

                                        OH! I'M STILL GONNA NEED YA'LLS HELP,

andybyrd wrote:

WELL I GUESS I SHOULD CLEAN THIS UP, WE DID NOT SEE B33/IT WAS M78 IM VERRY SORRY, for my exited state of mind but i am gonna see b33 / what ever it takes thats my pledge to my wife i think she wants it more than me, THANK YA'LL ALL, VERY MUCH                                            ANDY & TERRI                                         OH! I'M STILL GONNA NEED YA'LLS HELP,

No need to be sorry, it isn't a problem. This is what we are all here for. To share our experiences and to learn from each others.

 

Have A Nice ___________

How dark are your skies?  If you have good vision, you should find this object FAIRLY easy under dark skies with a nebula filter.  I've found I can just barely make out this object under mag 6.5 and darker skies with my 4" refractor with H-beta filtration, but the observation is very marginal.  With that small of a scope, IC 434 is steadily visible in adverted vision, but making out the Horsehead is a different matter since the magnification is so low.  Still, it's just barely detectable as a little "bump" in IC 434 that comes and goes.  There have been reports of people sighting the Horsehead nebula under VERY dark skies with 70mm Binoculars that have an H-beta filter taped to each eyepiece!

Aperture does benefit this object alot, and with my 18" scope and H-beta filtration, I can make out the Horsehead from my backyard that is roughly limiting magnitude 5.5 (Winter Milky Way is just faintly visible).  From a dark site, I'd say the object becomes positively easy, and even older guys with much less sensitive vision than me can see it.  I've seen the Horsehead nebula without a filter several times, but each time it was at a site that was about mag 6.5 or darker.  Last month I observed three times from the Conecuh National Forest, limiting magnitude 6.8+, and even the Horsehead's characteristic shape was visible without a filter. 

It all really depends on how dark your sky is, and how sensitive your vision is.

Stephen Waldee's HH page can be found here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~astro-app/horsehead/B33_3.htm

If you scroll down a bit you can find that there's a report of Steve spotting B33 with the 8x42 binoculars + H-Beta filters.

 /Jake

 PS. Steve is a member here so he might add a few notes of his.

Never wrote:

Stephen Waldee's HH page can be found here: http://home.earthlink.net/~astro-app/horsehead/B33_3.htm If you scroll down a bit you can find that there's a report of Steve spotting B33 with the 8x42 binoculars + H-Beta filters.  /Jake  PS. Steve is a member here so he might add a few notes of his.

 Wow, that's an amazing site.  Thanks for pointing it out.

Yes, John, it certainly is.  I remember Steve quite well from when he was active on sci.astro.amateur during its heyday.

Just for the record, I saw B33 once again without a filter when I was observing at the summit of Dolly Sods in West Virginia on the night of November 24.  This time it was through an 18" Obsession during what was an exceptional night.

Dave Mitsky 

in general when you can see the milkyway across the sky looking like long thick white cloud about what mag.skys would that be. and how or what stars do you check to see what mag. skys you have. thanks, Andy

Summer Milky Way or winter Milky Way? There's a big difference and it pretty hard to estimate the limiting magnitude just by that. I see the Milky Way somewhat like that from my backyard but the mag of my skies is hardly even 6.0.

Let's say B33 is in the south. Take a look at M35 without optical aid, can you see it? How about the M36, 37, 38 trio? Just select a good, dark region from the sky and try to see the faintest, pre-selected star you can. I use Perseus like this:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/jaakko.saloranta/Deepsky/Perseus.jpg
 

Or you can try it like this if it is more to your taste: http://obs.nineplanets.org/lm/rjm.html

Never wrote:

Summer Milky Way or winter Milky Way? There's a big difference and it pretty hard to estimate the limiting magnitude just by that. I see the Milky Way somewhat like that from my backyard but the mag of my skies is hardly even 6.0. Let's say B33 is in the south. Take a look at M35 without optical aid, can you see it? How about the M36, 37, 38 trio? Just select a good, dark region from the sky and try to see the faintest, pre-selected star you can. I use Perseus like this: http://www.kolumbus.fi/jaakko.saloranta/Deepsky/Perseus.jpg   Or you can try it like this if it is more to your taste: http://obs.nineplanets.org/lm/rjm.html

Or you can use a SKY Quality Meter http://unihedron.com/projects/darksky/ and not have to deal with whether your eyes are as sensitive as the other guys. The SQM gives a quantitative measurement of the brightness of the sky. This way you will know if the magnitude of the object you are looking for is bright enough to be seen. It's a nice little tool. By the way, M35 is an easy naked eye object from my back yard. Last night my SQM avaerage reading was 20.54 at midnight which equates to around 6.32 NELM. Not a good night. Bill

THANKS guys for your help. i did'nt know they made a sky meter. it sounds good i'm gonna try one. i also like the sky charts, i will do both. there will be no second guessing then,  thanks for your help,

                                   Andy & Terri Byrd,

The scope was a 12" F/4.5 Hardin Optical.. Location - Hosahalli Village - 80KM from the city of Bangalore, India..Skies were near 6.5mag (Someone could reportedly see M33 Naked eye.. So that should say it all )..Flame nebula was almost easily there in the field of a 32mm plossl once Alnitak's glare was blocked..

We gave a shot at B33 at higher power... Not that we could actually "see" it.. But we more like "feel", "sense" a dark patch with averted vision..