Cosmology

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

Kevin Bozard — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:57:30 GMT

chipdatajeffB:
One last time: no religious discussions here.

Obviously, this can't be done. Thread locked.

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

kuzinov — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:43:32 GMT

Leo731 Thanks, this plumber tries to be a logical voice of reason....

I think there is a big distinction (Okay, a galaxy sized gulf) betwen a religion liking BBT and the BBt being created for a particular religious viewpoint. When I attended Catholic school in the 80s, they were quite content with the BBT, mostly I think because of the lack of explanation for what was going just prior to the Big Bang. There's some followers of the Hindu persuasion that like the idea of a "Big Crunch", it fits their outlook of the Universe, it's been a long time since I was familiar with their texts, but, basically the god of creation wakes up and begins to weave a new Universe.

It's also incorrect to suggest that the BBT only reflects Western beliefs. Anybody ever to come up with any theory or hypothesis is influenced by their beliefs and preconceptions, it's called being human., welcome to the menagerie. I think the point many of us are trying to make is that if you're going to go up against the BBT, you'd better have a lot more to back you up than links to papers you don't even understand. Until someone comes up with a non-fanciful theory that meets observations and can explain matter formation, creation of the elements, the BBT is here to stay.

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

leo731 — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:48:18 GMT

M.C.Malkemus:

BBT does go a long way toward providing support for Western cultural underpinnings. There can be no question about this.

As I stated before this is an unfounded statement. Western civilization works just fine under any concept of cosmology and in fact did so for over 50 years under steady state cosmology and hundreds of years when astronomers believed that the entire eternal universe was comprised of the Milky Way galaxy and spiral nebulae were just pretty gas clouds within it. As hard as it may be for some to accept, the actual structure of the universe has not been a central element in the development of western culture since the time of Galileo. Other things have gained the central focus of our culture and and astronomy is nothing but a minor sideshow compared to other cultural battles over evolution, race, gender, or even procreation.

I too worked for a scientific company and was assigned a particular avenue of research. If I had stepped outside what was assigned to me, or worse allowed my research to suffer or be warped by my preconceived notions I would have expected nothing less than to be fired. That does not mean that science is in a straightjacket or that scientists are being censured. If you want to persue your own research goals go to academia where once you have tenure you can work on any thing you want to, even as Newton did when he spent the last years of his life trying to turn lead into gold.

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

Dusty_Matter — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:57:47 GMT

Again, you have called us believers like it is some form of religion. Should you not believe in fact? If all evidence points to a comprehensive concept, should we not give it some credance? It doesn't matter from which direction it came, North, South, East, or West. What cultural underpinnings are you talking about?

I was told that to do something other than what you were hired to do was called wasting company time. Extreme? That's called buisness. Unless you have been given the position to be able to express your own valid viewpoint, then really, you just do what your told. If you want to ignore the obvious to pursue a baseless idea, then do it on your own time.

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

M.C.Malkemus — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:56:27 GMT

I personally took no offence at Harry's comments, and have always found him to be a valuable part of the dialog.

I have however, been attacked by believers (perhaps in these posts, but certainly in other venues) for having the audacity to question BBT.

BBT does go a long way toward providing support for Western cultural underpinnings. There can be no question about this.

When I worked in a scientific lab, I found that I was allowed to venture slightly outside of current research in order to advance science, but these limits were rigourously enforced by senior scientists. Anyone stepping too far outside of the status quo can expect termination in today's scientific endeavor.

It does seem to me that today's extreme guidelines within the scientific community are an impediment towards rapid scientific advancement.

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

leo731 — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:11:11 GMT

kuzinov:
The BBt isn't some hypothesis pulled out of someone's butt, it's a theory that developed FROM observations. It also can explain how the elements formed(hydrogen and helium first, heavier elements like carbon, iron, etc. from primordial stars that later novaed and spread their elements to form planets, asteroids, and us.

Well I haven't heard it put quite that way before kuzinov, but I thank you for the first coherent and non-fanciful comment seen here in awhile.

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

kuzinov — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:53:37 GMT

Fluflu: I'm going to be nice and try to explain a couple of things to you. Firstly, a galaxy is a large formation of stars, IE: our Milky Way, galaxies, stars, planets, and other things make up "The Universe"(the Universe is EVERYTHING, EVER). You are highly incorrect about no observations. Basically, decades ago, a brilliant man named Hubble noticed that the spectrographs of galaxies indicated they were moving away from us, in fact, it was later determined they were moving away from each other as well, short answer the Universe was expanding. I'm sure I'm messing up some stuff, but, you'll get the gist of things. Decades later, when scientists were kicking around early BBT, acouple of eggheads at Princeton figured out that if the Big Bang occurred, there would be residual radiation that would be redshifted to a particular frequency. Meanwhile, a couple of other egghead types at Bell Labs were trying to figure out why they couldn't get rid of a signal from their new antenna. They tried everything, from scrubbing out pigeon poop(in case it was mildly radioactive) to rechecking their equipment. The Princeton chaps heard about it, and take a wild guess what frequency it was. The reason they couldn't get rid of the signal was because it was coming from every direction, this is the Cosmic Microwave Backround, the faded echo of the Big Bang. The BBt isn't some hypothesis pulled out of someone's butt, it's a theory that developed FROM observations. It also can explain how the elements formed(hydrogen and helium first, heavier elements like carbon, iron, etc. from primordial stars that later novaed and spread their elements to form planets, asteroids, and us. The BBT can explain many things about how everything got here, how it's structured, and why we see some of the things we see when we look out far enough. While it may be a theory, it's a darn good one and there really isn't a better one out there that can explain what the BBT can. The recyclic theory of Mr. Costas doesn't even come close.

Remember, if it looks like everyone else is wrong or a jerk, take a good look in the mirror and make sure it isn't you...

That last comment isn't aimed at you personally Fluflu

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

TeleTaurus7 — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:37:08 GMT

chipdatajeffB:

fluflu:

If our Universe ( Galaxy ) is ...

You do understand that "Universe" and "Galaxy" are different, right?

LOL

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

chipdatajeffB — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:38:39 GMT

One last time: no religious discussions here.

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

leo731 — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:02:41 GMT

fluflu:
A lot is being place to assumed that the BBT is the answer but I suspect that to pleased believers the BBT leads more to the CREATION MODEL or sets the tone for some future arguments in favor for such a MODEL.

A false assumption. An eternal god fit quite nicely in an eternal universe. There was no shortage of faith under the older quasi-steady state theoretical cosmology. No religion on Earth is staking its existence on the BBT theory nor do they care what scientific theories hold sway as they will believe whatever they want to based on faith. The BBT is not a creation model nor an origin story. It supplanted the earlier steady state theory because it better explained observations. The BBT predicted that there would exist a uniform CMB and when this was discovered it drove the final nail into the coffin of steady state theory.

The continued pursuit of the idea that "The Faithful" support the BBT and have somehow engineered a world wide conspiracy to throttle all dissent by arcane or subtle means is a paranoid delusion that has no place here and I am tired of having it continually regurgitated.

If one goes back to the beginning of this thread there are at least two direct references made by the author that equate religion with ignorance and fanaticism. The most recent entry by this poster does nothing to dispel any indications that they will not arise once again when the moderators are looking elsewhere. Indeed the issue of religion has once again been raised in this conspiratory vein the very day that this thread reappeared.

This thread is nothing more than an advertisement for this man's website. If one uses the Yahoo search engine for this theory his web site will not be the only one that will come up. This very thread under the Astronomy.com address is displayed right under his entry. What better way to gain credibility than to have a second entry under a well known publication for one's site?

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

chipdatajeffB — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:29:56 GMT

fluflu:

If our Universe ( Galaxy ) is ...

You do understand that "Universe" and "Galaxy" are different, right?

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

fluflu — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:44:18 GMT

If our Universe ( Galaxy ) is expanding, then here is a question.... Are there other Universes ( Galaxies ) expanding? What is true for one may be true for others or all. At this time I believe that no one has observed an expanding Universe ( Galaxy ). I know that scientists have come up with all sort of gagets to make derteminations which they hope are correct but there may be a need to redefine these terms as to what is expanding and one of the better ways is to seek other Universes ( Galaxies ) and study their behaviours movements. So far it has been observed that we are all moving away from each other but none has been observed to be expanding.

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

fluflu — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:29:15 GMT

It may not be directly done but since most scientists are believers Mr. Harry Costas may have a point. A lot is being place to assumed that the BBT is the answer but I suspect that to pleased believers the BBT leads more to the CREATION MODEL or sets the tone for some future arguments in favor for such a MODEL. This also goes in accordance to an EXPANDING UNIVERSE --

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

M.C.Malkemus — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:44:31 GMT

Thanks Kevin.

I personally believe in no religion, and all religions at the same time. It stems from my own belief in an ambiguous reality that gives rise to paradox and mystery and a complete inability of the limited human mind to come to terms with all of it.

While I wouldn't expect anyone else to subscribe to my personal beliefs, which I understand are uniquely my own, I certainly respect everyone's right to believe as they see fit.

Beyond religious belief, it is clear that most people hold very rigidly to one viewpoint or another for a variety of reasons, when it comes to the creation or existence of the universe. If this post has shown anything, it is the fact that we are not going to agree on these viewpoints, no matter what is said.

It seems best to just enjoy each point of view for what it is: a point of view.

Best wishes,

Mick Malkemus

Re: Mystery of rapidly expanding universe solved?

Kevin Bozard — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:24:54 GMT

After discussions with the original poster, and the forum administration. We've decided to unlock this thread. Please keep discussions on topic, as any attack on another member, or their beliefs will result in this thread being locked permanently.