Just to be complete--

  In my simplistic mind, pushing for green energy seems like a win-win.  Already, we are seeing massive cost reductions as major contracts are going out to wind turbine and solar panel producers--and this with very little federal support.

      Green energy is limitless as long as you have the means to capture it.  It doesn't pollute.  It doesn't send billions of dollars to other nations.  It insures other sectors of the economy can grow free of power cost increases in due time.  The conversion process will create many, many jobs in research, engineering, and technical areas.

   So, with all these apparent benefits, why shouldn't we do this?

Green energy threatens the fossil fuel/fission energy status quo and that's why it's been so hard for any truly meaningful progress to take place.  Remember all the alternative energy programs that Jimmy Carter put into place and which might have made a big difference in today's world?  When the next president took office funding for all of them was slashed.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_5_60/ai_65133031

http://www.geocities.com/thereaganyears/environment.htm

Dave Mitsky

  An interesting take, Dave.

  Now, let me get this straight.  You're saying--I believe I have this right-- you're saying that the oil industry is manipulating government for the sake of profit--even when it is against national and public interest? !?!?!?

  Thats Crazy Talk.

  Now, Dave, I'm a reasonable man, but this--this is really sensational!  And a little bit unpatriotic, I might add.   Get with the program.  Assimilate, or die. (Or assimilate AND die, or whatever...)

  Seriously, thanks for the help.  It's frustratng sometimes, you know.  And LONELY. 

   Boo.

BECAUSE GREEN ENERGY TAKES BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO PRODUCE!!!!!

What about nuclear power? With good management, nuclear power is actually very safe and produces loads of energy without any . It takes less space, too, even if you have to dig a big hole to put toxic waste in. But who knows? Maybe one day we'll just send all our trash strait into the sun and never have to deal with it again!

There is some NIMBY going on too.  Those wind farms are ugly, noisy, and each one has a bright red blinking anti-collision light on top. They are helpful of course but I wouldn't want to live near them anymore than have a pristine area chopped up and polluted for oil and gas drilling. Since most of us don't live in Alaska or Florida Keys it is easy for us all to say start drilling.

I wouldn't mind having solar derived augmentation for my electricity and hot water, a better insulated house, and a car that would get 50 mpg either but the sad fact of the matter is that even with incentives most of this stuff remains beyond the means of a great many Americans who are trying to make do with a ten year old car, a 60 year old apartment, and would not be able to live where they do now if the landlord implemented these green changes to their units and raised the rent to cover it.  We did indeed miss out in the 1970s to correct this but oil got cheap again after the OPEC crisis and the oil companies and their political cronies made sure that their sacred right to maximize profits was not infringed.  I think change is good and it will come but trying to rush all this into place in a frenetic manner will just put even more burdens on a middle class under seige and a poorer class just trying to survive.

L

L

See, now that's one thing I DON'T like about chat rooms and written posts.  You don't get to see the person's face or hear their voice when something is TYPED.

Maybe I've missed something here, but was that a joke??????  Are you serious about digging a big hole in order to bury nuclear waste?????  I'll reserve ranting until the answer is revealed.

WannaB:

Maybe I've missed something here, but was that a joke??????  Are you serious about digging a big hole in order to bury nuclear waste?????  I'll reserve ranting until the answer is revealed.

Yeah... 100 feet down, with concrete around it so it doesn't pollute our ground water and give us spare appendages. Then in the future we can get Helium-3 from the Moon for endless electricity.

BTW, let me point out that very few places can use wind power, and you'd need an area about three times the size of Spain, entirely covered with solar panels, to give the world entirely solar electricity.

And let me just say that people will build or do what is most efficient, not what they think is best for the environment. If you put enough incentives into play make solar power profitable, then you'll be out of cash. It's that simple.

leo731:

There is some NIMBY going on too.  Those wind farms are ugly, noisy, and each one has a bright red blinking anti-collision light on top. They are helpful of course but I wouldn't want to live near them anymore than have a pristine area chopped up and polluted for oil and gas drilling. Since most of us don't live in Alaska or Florida Keys it is easy for us all to say start drilling.

Every wind farm I have seen has been built away from populated areas where the hill sides or hill tops they rest on are wide open to the winds.  I'm not aware of any noise problems, however that reminds of some of the noise complaint I have heard around here with the increasing development of new housing subdivision slowly taking over.  It makes me laugh it's so idiotic
Many of these subdivisions have been located near the military base or the auxiliary landing fields.  These people move into their new homes and complain about the noise from the impacts of artillery or bombs, and the noise from jets taking off and landing at the air field.   If they didn't want the noise they shouldn't have moved their in the first place.  This Military base and the Auxiliary landing field have been here since WWII long before the development of the new subdivision was conceived.   

Point here I guess other than don't move there if you don't like the noise and looks of it, is that there is plenty of wide open country still away from populated areas that can be utilized for these wind farms.  The problem is the developers wanting to use every square foot of land they can get their hands on, some of them using "buy, develop, sell and run" methods of business.

As for drilling for more oil so we can reduce our dependency on foreign oil, People have to make up their minds. We can't have our cake and eat it too.  We have to decide if we want to pay for it or not. One way or another we ultimately will pay. Either in increased costs for imports and dependencies, or to give up the land and put up with the sights, sounds and ecological impacts it may have.   

Have A Nice _______

Very true, we will build or do whatever is the most efficient.  THERE is the problem!  "Most efficient" is good with many things, but when you do "most efficient" with the very land, water, food sources, and atmosphere you're depending on to keep you ALIVE, not so good.

As I stated before, I'm not a firm believer in global warming, but I will and have said there IS a problem that needs addressed.  If anyone wants, they can go back and read my post earlier in this thread.  I'm not going to type it all in again.

As for the disposal of nuclear waste...REALLY???  You're Serious???  There's already too much in our oceans and underground NOW.  Think of how much there would be if we powered the world with only nuclear power.  Or even use it for a majority of our power.  I don't spend my time off of work hanging out in trees, go out and blow up whaling ships, nor mail anthrax-laced letters to heads of oil companies, but I do believe there is NO good way to "dispose" of ANY nuclear waste.  That is, no cost-effective, layman's way of diposing of it.  I don't care how deep it's buried or how much concrete you pour around it, sooner or later, you've got a problem.  Maybe not us, but our kids and grandkids will have to suffer the consequences.  Ah, who cares about them, I'll be dead anyway.

I don't see anything wrong with exploring and developing green energy resources.  Right now, no, there's problems with developing these resources.  That's why there's R&D.  I doubt the invention of the combustion engine went off without a hitch.  Wasn't like the first one was built and that's what we've been using ever since. I'm by no means an activist, but why not develop the technology to use a resource that's there and will ALWAYS be there.  Well, at least for the next few billion years...or 2012.

tkerr:

Point here I guess other than don't move there if you don't like the noise and looks of it, is that there is plenty of wide open country still away from populated areas that can be utilized for these wind farms.  The problem is the developers wanting to use every square foot of land they can get their hands on, some of them using "buy, develop, sell and run" methods of business.

Oh I quite agree.  Here in the southland we are dealing with a large military base that was mothballed and supposed to be turned into a park but is still nothing more than an empty base that is being fought over by developers.  We also have a former Naval Air Station that was turned into a Armed Forces Reserve Center.  Developers have built right up to the fences.  There are multi-story offices directly in the landing pattern used by everything from F-18s to C-5s!  Its all crazy but there is that strong streak of property owner rights that is used to  build whatever you want on your property regardless of how it effects the neighbors. I was thinking of that poor fellow living in the midwest who was there first when the local energy concern built a wind farm near his home.  Or the lcoals in Colorado who now are living in an area of natural gas drilling and are dealing with polluted air and groundwater where once it was clean and clear.

L 

Around here, the hot buttons are the turkey/chicken farms and the hog operations.  People will build their houses butted up right next to these and then start screaming about the stink/air quality.  There was a law suit here in this county only a few months ago where a bunch of people from a couple of the "cities" around here built and moved out to the "country".  Well, their homes were right next to an existing hog farm that had been there since hogs were invented.  Guess they didn't realize that "the country" can sometimes be stinky and noisy when your neighbors consist of about 300 head of swine.  Anyway, they almost got the hog operation shut down.  They even got the local health dept. involved.  Luckily, especially for the farmer, the city folk didn't get their way.

Same thing here too about the new homeowners vs dairy farmers.  An entire industry will be gone in the next ten years replaced with high density development around Chino California.  I look for the new locals to next target the general aviation airport with its extensive collections of historic flyable warbirds to be next on their list.  Stinky cows and pig waste don't mix with city folks!

L

Well, come to think of it, these "city folk" may be the progressive members of our society.  If they can move out of the cities and into the "country" and get these livestock operations shut down, they'll be able to get rid of the methane problem referred to earlier(maybe that was in the Global Warming thread) and therefore help resolve GW.  But then again, the extra gasoline they'll burn getting from their homes back to their jobs in the city from where they moved would probably make it all a wash.

Man, we're NEVER get this thing rectified!

The problem with energy is that pesky old thing about not being able to be created or destroyed.  Every source of energy is a trade-off of some sort.  Something has to be converted into something else, and there are always by-products.  We have to decide what we are willing to give up, and what we are willing to have buried, standing, or dumped next door to us.

I do agree with WannaB about the nuclear waste, that stuff is too nasty, too difficult to contain, and lasts far too long to be on my short list of options.  Solar and wind are good for personal use, or on the small scale, but I can't imagine the size of the turbine field it would take to power Chicago, or L.A.  It is a start though.

zachsdad:

Every source of energy is a trade-off of some sort. 

Aye, that is the rub.  Even if all animal life died and the CO2 stopped totally would that be a good thing?  The simple act of breathing out, and well outgassing, introduces methane and CO2 which our brother plants use and turn back to good old oxygen.  Solar power would work great in the southwest but I would want plenty of fuel oil if I was in the northeast surrounded by snowdrifts!

There is no free lunch, but maybe we could belly up to the energy buffet a bit less often?

L

I saw a news program about Germany.  They're already at 15% green.  I swear they had solar panels on everything in sight.    

One interesting thing they highlighted was a soccer field.  Solar energy powered the entire thing.  Even the showers were heated using solar energy. 

 I certainly agree there is a problem.  I watch the news and read what I can but I am personally not certain how immediate the problem is.  I also think we cannot wait until it is an immediate problem to act.  Personally my wife and I raised our thermostat 6 degrees to just about 80 this summer.  We have started car pooling with my mother and father in law.  We combine trips.  On our days off we all get together and figure out where we need to go and plan the trip so it takes as little driving as possible, hell I went from a tank a week to a tank every 2 weeks.  All of my outdoor lights are on sensors so they go out at dawn.  I put new windows in the house and plan to re insulate the attic and add a power attic vent this summer.  Those are the major changes I have made.  I know one person does not solve the problem but I believe by telling others just maybe one or two might follow suit.  Just my 2 cents. 

Arawn75:

Those are the major changes I have made.  I know one person does not solve the problem but I believe by telling others just maybe one or two might follow suit.

BRAVO! 

I'm not convinced there is such a huge problem, but if there is it will have to be solved one person at a time. If A.G. did as much as you I might listen to him. 

All the nuclear waste we've ever made couldn't even fill a sports stadium. If it's disposed properly, it won't be a problem. Yes, I believe that every building should one day have solar panels on the roof, and that fossil fuels must be left out in favor of other energy sources, but to power the world with dams and wind farms? There goes the economy.

Kyle:

All the nuclear waste we've ever made couldn't even fill a sports stadium. If it's disposed properly, it won't be a problem. Yes, I believe that every building should one day have solar panels on the roof, and that fossil fuels must be left out in favor of other energy sources, but to power the world with dams and wind farms? There goes the economy.

That analogy covers the 56,000 tons of spent fuel rods awaiting disposal, but not the 91 million gallons of high-level waste from plutonium production, or the tons of waste plutonium itself, or 500,000 tons of depleted uranium, or millions of cubic feet of contaminated tools, metal scraps, clothing, etc., or the 265,000,000 tons of unstabilized waste uranium ore.  All this from our current limited use of nuclear energy.

There must be a better way.