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M102
Last post 06-12-2008 08:28 AM by Oliver Tunnah. 8 replies.
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  • 06-08-2008 07:45 AM

    M102

    Well it's the last missing Messier object. I haven't seen a poll about it so I thought, why not start one?

    Is M102:

    NGC 5866

    (Hubble shot) 

    Or M101

    (Self process of DSS-2 plates)

    I think it's 5866. The obsevational data suggests this. I think Mechain panicked when Messier didn't check up his observation. I reckon he was wrong about being wrong. (If that makes sense.) 

  • 06-08-2008 07:55 AM In reply to

    Re: M102

    I think you could be right, but either way, that is a simply beautiful picture of NGC5866. 

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  • 06-09-2008 12:21 PM In reply to

    Re: M102

     What do you expect from hubble?!

  • 06-09-2008 12:44 PM In reply to

    Re: M102

     LOL  I hadn't noticed it was labeled as a Hubble shot.

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  • 06-09-2008 02:32 PM In reply to

    • mr Q
    • Joined on 02-01-2008
    • Edgewood, NM
    • Posts 556

    Re: M102

     According to info in the book "The Messier Objects" (1998) by Stephen O'Meara, M102 is a duplicate observation of M101 by both Messier and Mechain (March,1781 & no date for Mechain's entry). In 1783, Mechain retracted his mistaken observation but Messier didn't after his second observation of M101 (NGC5457). Another galaxy at 11th mag., just 45' from M101 may have been the duplicate both saw but no confirmation on this. Another group of 11th mag. galaxies lie 1 degree north of M101, whose overall pattern resembles that of the nucleus of M101 (another candidate for the duplicate sighting?).

       In the end, most sources will claim M102 was a duplicate of M101, by both Messier and Mechain.

       What confuses me is your reference to NGC 5866?

        Mr Q
     

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  • 06-10-2008 05:53 AM In reply to

    Re: M102

    One school of thought is that Mechain was actually describing NGC 5866, as is discussed at http://www.maa.clell.de/Messier/missing.html

    Dave Mitsky

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  • 06-10-2008 09:51 AM In reply to

    Re: M102

    mr Q:

     According to info in the book "The Messier Objects" (1998) by Stephen O'Meara, M102 is a duplicate observation of M101 by both Messier and Mechain (March,1781 & no date for Mechain's entry). In 1783, Mechain retracted his mistaken observation but Messier didn't after his second observation of M101 (NGC5457). Another galaxy at 11th mag., just 45' from M101 may have been the duplicate both saw but no confirmation on this. Another group of 11th mag. galaxies lie 1 degree north of M101, whose overall pattern resembles that of the nucleus of M101 (another candidate for the duplicate sighting?).

       In the end, most sources will claim M102 was a duplicate of M101, by both Messier and Mechain.

       What confuses me is your reference to NGC 5866?

        Mr Q

     

    Mechain's observational data puts M102 between Iota Draconis and Theta Bootes. (Some sources have Omricon Bootes, But this may be due to a misreading of the symbol. They are similar.) Now M101 lies between Iota Darconis and Ursa Major. Either way the grouping of NGC's 5907,5866 and 5905 lies between ID and TB or ID and OB. Now This is tha main reason for discounting M101. What puts forward 5866 is it's magnitude. It's the only one of the three that could be seen by Messier's scopes. At 10th mag it's equals the faintest Messier objects. So they could have seen 5866. M101 is some 10 Degrees from 5866. So Mechain knowing they were close in the sky wanted to make sure and was unerved by Messier's complete trust in him. I guess he expected Messier to confim the latest objects.

    However both objects should have looked a little different. M101. Messier's discription: 'Nebula without star, very obscure & pretty large, of 6 or 7 minutes [of arc] in diameter, between the left hand of Bootes & the tail of the great Bear [Ursa Major].'

     Mechain's original discription of M102 is: 'Nebula between the stars Theta Bootis & Iota Draconis: it is very faint; near it is a star of the sixth magnitude.'

    Even the discriptions are different.

    The debate goes on.

     

  • 06-11-2008 03:08 PM In reply to

    • mr Q
    • Joined on 02-01-2008
    • Edgewood, NM
    • Posts 556

    Re: M102

     It surely will Oliver. Just trying to sort out the duplicate NGCs is problem enough not to mention those "lost" objects.

      Only when two or more observers (in the past) come up with the same object info and that info has been documented for us to see, can we be sure of any object. Too bad Messier messed up on this one but after all, he WAS interested in cometary objects and didn't give much of a hoot about any other ones. Oh well, we all can't be perfect. Look at Issac Newton.... a strange fellow indeed. I'm not biased in any way about him but I do love apples and newtonians. Mr Q

    P.S. Thanks Issac, your 6" long newt certainly grew over the centuries!
     

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    What goes around, comes around, eventually.

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    10x50, 10x70 binos
  • 06-12-2008 08:28 AM In reply to

    Re: M102

     Well I suppose his mess up in the 1700's (Or early 1800's) wasn't helpful. Shame he didn't he realise this was his legacy. Nobody hears of the five comets he discovered. But while there is various info out there, there will be two camps of arguement.

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