Hi,

 I'm looking at buying a new scope and I'd like a GoTo one.  I currently have a Meade Polaris 60mm Refractor and I'm frustrated with trying to find objects like M101 with it.

 I like this scope that I found online and wondered if anyone has any opinions or advice for me: http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=12&pid=8174&m=2

 I don't know how to use the eyepiece calculator or the CCD calculator or what they are for.  I was also wondering if anyone has an opinion on the Anti-Vibration Pads they sell in the Deluxe Kit.

 Starry

The ETX-90 is a good scope, but you can get the larger ETX-125 for that same price:

http://www.astronomics.com/main/product.asp/catalog_name/Astronomics/category_name/179ARTFWXCP68L7LH0S0L52L13/product_id/MP5U

I used the earlier version of the ETX-125 for a couple of years and found the GoTo system worked great.

i consistantly hear lots of good things about the ETX series scopes, although i have never owned one.  if, like was already stated, the 125 can be found for the same price, that would be better for observing galaxies due to the greater light grasp.  either way, the upgrade from what you're using now will be significant.

you may consider something on an equatorial mount if you can even imagine astrophotography in your future.  the setup would be a bit more difficult, but you can track objects with no field rotation. 

do you observe in light pollution?  if so, it's possible that you have passed over M101 already and missed it with that 60mm and bright sky.  with my 8"er, even bright galaxies become challenging targets in light polluted skies.  so with a scope of only ~2.4" i imagine that it would be nearly impossible.

good luck, clear skies

Thanks for your feedback guys and thanks for that link for the cheaper, larger scope.  I'd like to get it but I'm concerned about the weight.  I will be carrying it myself.  I don't have a problem with my present Polaris scope but its Shipping Weight is 15 pounds which means it may weigh even less.

 The one I want to buy weighs 19 pounds and the larger one you showed me weighs 26.5 pounds.  Would I be able to carry the tube and tripod separately though?  I mean would it be easy to set up again if I did that? 

 I was able to find M101 with my 10 x 50 binocs last night.
 

 Starry
 

In either of those ETX telescopes a target like M101 is going to be difficult to find. Although it might list a relatively bright apparent magnitude it has a low surface brightness magnitude.

On extended objects such as galaxies and nebulae, the magnitude is the brightness of the object if it would have all its light gathered (integrated) into a single point, like a star. A galaxy specified as having a magnitude of 6 will therefore appear dimmer than a 6th magnitude star because its light is not concentrated to one point like a star. Rather it is spread out over a larger area than a star. This is often refered to as visual magnitude A couple good example of this are the galaxies M33.  A 6th magnitude face on galaxy located in the Triangulum Constellation between Andromeda and Aries. This object is still hard to find even in a 8” or 10” telescope.. Because its magnitude 6 brightness is spread over nearly one square degree of sky. This is what you call an object that has a low surface brightness. (Surface Brightness is the brightness of the object as seen spread out over an area of space / the amount of light an object emits per area of the sky.). Even galaxies considered to have high luminosity can be hard to see beause of low surface brightness.  M33 is especially difficult if not impossible to find in Moon illuminated or light polluted skies. The Galaxy M101 is another example. There are also many Nebulae that fall into this category. Often to find these nebula a special filter is needed.. 

Here's a list of the the Messier Galaxies and their integrated magnitudes and  actual surface brightness.                         
Object  Mag.  Sur. Br.     Object  Mag.  Sur. Br.
  M31     3.4     13.6         M87     8.6     12.7
  M32     8.1     12.7         M88     9.6     12.6
  M33     5.7     14.2         M89     9.8     12.3
  M49     8.4     12.7         M90     9.5     13.6
  M51     8.4     12.6         M91   10.2     13.3
  M58     9.7     13.0         M94     8.2     13.5
  M59     9.6     12.5         M95     9.7     13.5
  M60     8.8     12.8         M96     9.2     12.9
  M61     9.7     13.4         M98   10.1     13.2
  M63     8.6     13.6         M99     9.9     13.0
  M64     8.5     12.4         M100   9.3     13.0
  M65     9.3     12.4         M101   7.9     14.8
  M66     8.9     12.5         M104   8.0     11.6
  M74     9.4     14.4         M105   9.3     12.1
  M77     8.9     13.2         M106   8.4     13.8
  M81     6.9     13.0         M108 10.0     13.0
  M82     8.4     12.8         M109   9.8     13.5
  M83     7.6     13.2         M110   8.1     13.9
  M84     9.1     12.3
  M85     9.1     13.0
  M86     8.9     13.9

As you can see there are a few galaxies that have a surface brightness greater than 14 magnitudes per square. In almost any size telescope these can be difficult to see under less than ideal conditions.

For the amount of money you will spend on that little telescope you can get a good size Dobsonian and might actually be able to see the objects you are looking for like M101.

Have A Nice ___________

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the info.  The Dobs I found so far look very bulky and heavy.  Do they make light ones?  I don't have much storage room at all either and I have to be able to carry in and out of the condo to bring it out front to the parking lot.

 The other thing is I they don't seem to have GoTos and I read that you have to contort yourself to look through the viewfinder and that's been causing me problems with my current one. 
 

Starrygyrl
 

Dobsonian scopes can be large and bulky, but if you stay in the 6" - 8" range they don't weigh to much.  The heaviest component of an 8" is roughly 23 lbs and they don't really take up too much room.  A 6" is lighter yet.

GOTO drive systems are available for dobs, but they cost much more than the scope itself.  Two of the more popular animals are the Tech2000 Dob Driver II and the StellarCat system.  These systems are easy to set up, even for casual observing.  Again, they are pricey.

You might want to consider a 6"-8" Newtonian (shorter focal length) that could be mounted on an EQ5 style mount.  These are fairly reasonable in cost and can be fitted with a GOTO system.  iOptron makes an EQ5 mount retrofit GOTO kit for this purpose... and it works well, without being overly complex.  An aperture as described above would put you in the realm of the "faint fuzzies", that you are looking for and give you the GOTO capability that you want.  

Starrygyrl:

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the info.  The Dobs I found so far look very bulky and heavy.  Do they make light ones?  I don't have much storage room at all either and I have to be able to carry in and out of the condo to bring it out front to the parking lot.

 The other thing is I they don't seem to have GoTos and I read that you have to contort yourself to look through the viewfinder and that's been causing me problems with my current one. 
 

Starrygyrl
 

No! They don't have goto unless you want to spend extra hundreds of dollars. 
The purpose of the Dobsonian design base/mount was to bring larger aperture telescopes to the average person at a more affordable cost. More Bang for your Buck. Adding electronic gadgetry only defeats that purpose. And gives them something that will fail in a matter of time.

Don't be intimidated by night sky navigation.  It's not difficult to find the objects you're looking for as long as you can see and identify the brighter stars in the constellations, and have a little patience.  That is where charts and a planetarium program on your computer helps.  Books like NightWatch or Turn Left At Orion will have charts and teach you how to easily navigate the night sky.  Do it yourself navigation, location and identification is about 80% of the personall satisfaction you will get out of amateur astronomy..
I get the feeling your inability to see objects like M101 is not your navigation skills of the night sky, but rather the aperture of your telescope. And possibly your expectations of what you will be able to see.  Even in a larger telescope such as my 10" Newtonian it is very faint and hard to decern any detail at any amount of magnification even with averted vision.

A 8" Dob doesn't weight that much. It might be bulky when carried assembled. But don't do that, Carry it out one part at a time, ie. the Dob base which weighs around 20lbs and has a handle for carrying, then the Optical Tube Assembly which weighs about the same, maybe a coupkle lbs more.  If you have an open corner with a couple square feet of space you can easily place the telescope on its base there, or even in a closet. 

Can you tilt your head to the side then look up, that's about as much contortion that you will have to do with a Dob.  You can always get a Right Angle Correct Image(RACI) finder scope.  I personally find it easier to aim the telescope more like I would aim a riffle at the object. You can't do that with a RACI.
If you want something that will make you contort your self then get a large reflector on a EQ mount or a long focal length refractor on a EQ mount.  A Dob, either set directly on the ground or on a small stand less contorting. It just a matter of tipping the head to the side a little.
With my 6" refractor there are times I have had to lie on the ground to look through the finder scope. With a good size reflector on a EQ mount there will be times when you might need a ladder, and others when you might have to contort you neck a little. Or just loosen the rings and turn the OTA..

The Dobsonian is the easiest and one of the most stable telescopea and platforms you could get.  You could spend the extra money and get Digital Setting Circles(DSC's) like the Orion Intelliscopes which will help you locate objects, but you still have to move the telescope manually.  Digital Setting Circles or GoTo require knowledge of the stars needed to locate objects anyways. You have to first level then align the mount and telescope on three stars in different areas of the sky before it will be able to find those objects you want. 

After more time and experience you will get to the point where you can move to and find objects just as fast or faster than a Goto mount.

I often set my telescopes up side by side. I can enter the object I want to observe on my Goto mount, then while it is slewing to the object I can move over to my Dob and have it centered in my eyepiece before my Goto settles in on the object.

Oh and BTW, A Goto on a EQ or Alt-Az tripod mount can be bulky also.

Goto mounts are great for some people. Some will claim it allows them more time to spend observing the object rather than hunting for it. That's all fine and dandy. It's all a matter of planning your nights. With a GoTo mount you won't be able to get half the aperture you could because your budget will be spent on the mount rather than the telescope. The aperture of the telescope is what will allow you to see those faint objects like M101 that you're having a hard time with, Not a Goto.  A Goto might move the telescope to where the object is suppose to be, but that doesn't mean you will be able to see it.  Then you will be even more frustrated because you spent all that money on a small telescope with a fancy electronic mount.  Which brings me to another issue. A telescope with a goto mount within that price range will not only limit you to a small aperture but the mount might not be the most accurate or the sturdiest thing around.

You have indicated that you have an interest in distant faint deep sky objects. For that you want aperture.   Small aperture telescopes are great for portability. Great for objects like the Moon, sometimes Mars, then Jupiter and Saturn. For Deep Sky Objects small apertures are good observing multiple stars, some of the larger bright open and globular clusters, Large nebulae like the Orion Nebula, and the Andromeda Galaxy and few others that are bright. Objects like M101, M33 and many others will be out of reach in small apertures, especially under less than ideal condition which are few and far between. Ideal condition being pristine dark skies with zero light pollution, no haze and humidity, dry atmosphere and steady astronomical seeing conditions.  

Oh and did I mention a Classic dob has nothing that can break down or quit working on you. I have had my Celestron Goto Mount for about 4 1/2 years and have had to replace the Motor Control Circuit Board, the Hand Control and one of the Motor Drives.  All together over time that adds up $$$. I have only made additions to my Dob to make locating objects easier. That is the Telrad 1:1 magnification reflex sight, Something I recommend to everyone for any telescope. 

 My 10" Dob on the small table I made to rise it to a comfortable height for me to stand and observe. And my adjustable observing chair for when I choose to set it on the ground.

Review this thread and you will see some of the telescopes people are using. You can also see how easy it is to hold a Dob without it on the base/mount.
http://cs.astronomy.com/asycs/forums/t/19931.aspx?PageIndex=1

Have A Nice ___________

Wow, There's lots for me to digest and think about here.  Thanks for explaining so much.  I am confident in my ability to find objects actually, I've found M31, Bode's Nebula and M101 with my binocs.  I was able to find M101 the other night with my binocs but not my telescope.  I think the problem is the scope I currently own that has the plastic parts, terrible vibration probs, etc.....

 Yeah I have a lot of light pollution but sometimes conditions are ideal out here, especially between midnight and 4am and I'm often up then and functioning at my best then. 

A ladder would be out of the question for me though.  Also, how many trips would I have to make with a Dob?  Two would be ok, three is pushing it. Another thing is, I'm able to sit in a patio chair and view through my scope now depending on what I'm looking at.  Would that also be possible with a Dob?  With the smaller Dob, it sounds like storage  won't be a problem at least. 

 I think the XT-8 Intelliscope is the best compromise for you. I keep mine in my garage and it takes a space about 2ft x 2ft x 5ft. I move it all at once, but you can break it into two roughly equal trips. It has no motor, but the object locator (Push To) works pretty well for me. It's more reliable than my ETX-80. Don't forget that the dob won't track objects, and they move out of the field pretty fast at high magnification. I don't think you'll need a ladder. I usually end up on my knees. Prolly standing up or sitting in your chair will get you close for most objects. I think the XT-6 is too small (aperture) and the XT-10 is too big (size and weight).

Starrygyrl:

A ladder would be out of the question for me though.  Also, how many trips would I have to make with a Dob?  Two would be ok, three is pushing it. Another thing is, I'm able to sit in a patio chair and view through my scope now depending on what I'm looking at.  Would that also be possible with a Dob?  With the smaller Dob, it sounds like storage  won't be a problem at least. 

Unless you get a large truss tube Dob you won't need a ladder.  An 8" or 10" Dob is only around 4 feet to the focuser when it is in the vertical position.
I made a table to raise mine up about 20 inches so that the focuser is at my eye level to view more comfortably when I am standing up.  The chair I use which is in the above picture is adjustable from near ground to about 32 inches at about 4 inch increments. I use the chair most often with my 6" refractor but have used it with my Dob. When I use it with my Dob I just set the Dob on the ground rather than the small table stand..

Have A Nice __________

You're probably finding that there's no lack of information amateur astronomers are willing to offer on the topic of telescope equipment, and a number of them have been made here.  Most of the suggestions are personal preference.  Take all of these suggestions under advisement but make your final decision based upon your own wants, needs and desires.  Yes, it's true that aperture for the buck is a consideration.  Of equal, if not greater importance, is purchasing equipment that will perform for you, in the way that you want it to. 

If a GOTO system keeps you interested in the hobby then go for it!  It's really up to you.  It is definitely true that the optics used in telescope/GOTO system "bundles" are typically "so - so", so you'll need to bear that in mind as you consider your purchase.

The most well-rounded starter scope (meeting your requirements, minus the GOTO) would be simple alt/az dob.   You wouldn't be disappointed.  Keep in mind that nearly any dob can be upgraded with a GOTO systems, if you determine that this capability is really what you want or need.  It's also important to point out that GOTO systems also track objects, which really is a nice feature when using higher magnifications.  It's a virtual necessity, if you move into the astrophography arena.  I agree with others who've posted here that finding objects by hand is an important skill to learn and it will add immensely to your joy of this hobby. 

Amateur astronomy can be one of the most enjoyable life-long hobbies you can ever undertake.  It will only be "life-long" if it keeps your interest.  I'm sure we'd all encourage you to choose the equipment that fit's your needs and keeps you interested.

Just some info on the storage space required.  My 8 inch dob takes up much less space than my 6 inch on it's tripod mount.

 Clear skies 

 Chuck

Hello Starry,

Lots of good info here by some very good people, but as NFS has said it all comes down to what will work best for you and your observing location.

As a personal experience I just love my Celestron 6" SCT with the Goto.  I live in a light polluted area and finding objects by star hopping is difficult far too often save directly overhead.  I have been doing this for over forty years with all types of scopes and I think Newtonian reflectors are grand!

But being older and stuck to observing most times in a sky that is not dark resulted in my observing less as I just didn't want to mess with setting up a larger scope, waiting for cool down, collimation, and the usual things needed to get ready.  The smaller scope allows much less set up time, I can pick it up easily, and the goto increases my time of observing the objects I want to, or realize that the object is there but the Light Pollution is so bad that even with a filter it can't be seen. I don't waste time searching and can move on from that invisible galaxy to a cool open cluster.

There are so many scopes out there so choose the one that will get you outside the most often and that you will enjoy. The two scopes that you mentioned as possible purchases at the top of this thread would be good solid performers. 

Don't buy a closet queen that will gather more cobwebs than starlight. That is just my two cents from a guy that loves to look at the universe in a nice comfy chair and let the technology and skill of current telescope optics and mechanics ease the ride.

Keep looking up,

L 

 There's a lot of info here.  My husband is also periodically reading this thread and helping me research to find a scope to buy.  We want a scope that allows us to add a wide angle lens because he's got very bad vision and can't see through our current scope.  If there are any other suggestions for him we'd like to know.

The Dobs we looked at all had eyepieces at the top.  Does that mean I wouldn't ever be able to sit in a chair to use one?

We were concerned with the GoTos because they say you have to level them and that might be a real pain although it is flat where we live.  I like looking for objects myself but a GoTo would allow me more viewing time which is what i want and I like the idea of the telescope tracking the object as I like viewing through high mag.  

 The other concern I have about the GoTo is that we don't have access to the horizon of the sky.  There are 2 story condos all around us and taking the scope to another location isn't an option for me. 

 I like the idea of a PushTo.  I'd never heard of that before.

I'm in chronic pain so the least amount of work the scope is the better that will be for me.  I'm the one that will be using it the most as my husband is a day person and I'm a chronic insomniac.

We don't mind seeing scopes that cost more than the ones I posted about at the top of this thread btw.  We may or may not decide to spend more than that but we'd like to see our options.  

Starrygyrl 

 Hi Starry,

You might want to delay your purchase and see if there is an astronomy club within driving distance and go to a star party, that way you could look through different type of scopes and get a real feel for what would work best for you

Norm 

Norm is right on the money here.  Look for an astronomy club in your area and find out if they will be having a star party in the near future.  If they aren't planning anything in the near term, they would probably be able to suggest other up-coming star parties in your surrounding area... hopefully not too far away.  Astronomy clubs are an invaluable source of information and you'll find that they would be quite eager to help out.  If you can find a star party to attend, this would be a great opportunity to see first-hand the range of equipment other amateurs are using... and why.  It's also an excellent opportunity to "try before you buy".  Don't be shy.  Astronomers love to have others look through their scopes and they also love lots of questions.

It might also be worth the effort to put together a priority list of "must have" features, based on the information you've provided here.  This will go a long way toward eliminating equipment that won't fit your needs and should lead you in the proper direction toward ones that will.  It looks as though things like lightweight, easy to set up, easy to use GOTO, tracking, the option to use wider angle 2" eyepieces, the ability to remain seated while observing, and such might be the deciding factors for you. 

By now, you may have heard the expressions "astronomer's dread" or "astronomer's guilt".  This is a common situation, and here's what causes the phenomenon.  You've purchased your telescope equipment... the sky is clear... you look at you scope and say to yourself... "Nope, I just don't feel up to this tonight."  Consequently, you feel sort of guilty for not taking your scope outside.  This usually happens when we've purchased a scope that didn't really fit all the priorities we truly had before we made the purchase.  It's actually quite easy to get swept away and purchase something overly large or overly complex.  Try to resist this temptation.  If you end up purchasing equipment not meeting your own requirements, you probably won't use it very often.  Yes, I know that this sounds sort of like the ghost of Jacob Marley in Ebenezer Scrooge, but many of us in this forum would certainly be willing to give you their own version of the "Woe is me! ... don't walk the same path as I" speech. :)

I have an 8 inch dob and love it.  However, I also have a wife with chronic back pain, so I understand your problem.

With my dob, it's very easy to break it into two pieces, neither of which weighs much more then 20 pounds.  If I understand your physical problems correctly, I think that you're going to have trouble with the optical tube itself.  It's almost 4 feet long and 9 inches in diameter.  It's not heavy, but it is very bulky and unwieldy. 

But if you have a local astronomy club or a scope store near you, I would reccomend at least looking at a dob before deciding on a scope. 

 Good luck and clear skies!

Chuck

 Thanks for the suggestion to look at scopes in person before deciding on one to purchase.  It turns out Mr. John Dobson is practically in my backyard (so to speak) and I found a store on his site as well: http://www.sfsidewalkastronomers.org/

 They also sell binocs that are mounted so we can try that out for my husband too and Chuck, I think I could handle carrying your Dob. 
 

Hello Starry,

Sounds like you are on the right track and balancing the need for comfort and ease of use with size.  Seeing these scopes in person is always a great idea.

As to some of the points brought up;

You really don't need a 2" eyepiece.  What you need for your husband is a good 11/4 with a larger exit pupil.  Generally the lower power eyepieces, those 20mm or above should be quite comfortable for anyone, its when you get down to the 12mm or less that a plossl or orthoscopic's exit pupil, or rear lens where one would put their eye, turns into a peephole.  My Father has the same problem and I use a 9mm and a 6mm Expanse from Orion.  This is not a recommendation as these are adequate and cheap but there are a lot of newer designs out there with larger exit pupils that would remain comfortable for him to use.

One can sit with a smaller dob but beware of where the eyepiece is at.  Sometimes it can be at an awkward angle for a chair.  If the tube can be rotated like my big Newtonian that little problem is eliminated.

My Celestron tripod has a level bubble right on it so leveling is a snap. I just adjust the legs as needed.  As long as you can see Polaris you can align to the north.  Since you are using this visually just putting the north star in the field of view would be enough.  To align one needs to be able to see two or three stars to calibrate the Goto system.  If one of the stars chosen by the computer is blocked by a condo or tree all you have to do is scroll down the list on the display and choose a different star.  All told it takes me about 10 minutes to get set up; level the scope, find Polaris, enter time, date, and the three stars into the Goto system.  Being able to see the horizon is not a problem thank goodness because where I live I can see it well enough but the light pollution obscures everything besides Sirius, the Moon, and the odd bright planet. My mount is heavier than the Nexstar one but still light enough to carry in one piece and the optical tube weighs almost nothing.  If I wasn't fearful of dropping it I could carry it assembled.  One of the great things about my German Equitorial Mount with a motor or clockdrive is that once I have found what I am looking for it stays put.  No bumping or fussing with the scope.  I can just sit and enjoy the view for as long as I like.  I can leave the scope to attend to other things and return 15 minutes later and what I put there will have not moved.  One other thing regardless of what you choose to get consider a right angle finder.  I am replacing my straight through 6x30 on my C-6 with a 9x50 right angle not only for the increased light grasp but to eliminate the need for straining my neck when trying to find things overhead.  It is just a little less strain on the body.

I wish you well.

L