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Pier Problem. Need some help
Last post 03-04-2008 10:05 PM by pinkflyd34. 5 replies.
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  • 03-03-2008 08:35 PM

    Pier Problem. Need some help

     Hi guys. I installed the threaded rod in the pic 2 days ago. Went out this afternoon and put the plate on. After getting it pretty snug it started to move. Its a 3/4 threaded rod. 12" long. Only 2 inches are out. I know I should have bent the rod, but I didnt have anything to do that. Besides taking the concrete out and doing it over is there any epoxy or something like that that would work. I am just a bit worried about chippng out the concrete since the pier is made of cast iron and may break. Any suggestions??

     Thanks,

    steve

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  • 03-03-2008 09:17 PM In reply to

    Re: Pier Problem. Need some help

    You might be hosed. A lot will depend on the kind of weight you plan to put on this pier and how long a "moment arm" the scope or mount will have. A fork mount for an 8" SCT might not be too much, but a big EQ mount for a longer scope could be dangerous.

    How big is the concrete pier (diameter). It looks like maybe only 4 to 6 inches. If the threaded rod is loose enough to pull completely out of the concrete (without cracking the concrete. then you could remove it and replace it with a 1/2" bolt and some epoxy, but I'd only advise that if you also put a long cylindrical collar on the underside of the flat plate and run it down at least a foot over the concrete.

    Another thing you might consider is putting a clamp around the pier below the plate, and putting a U-bolt down through holes in the plate and connecting it to the clamp. That would help stabilize the top plate. You might even put a U-bolt on opposite sides of the pier.

    All these options would have to be plenty tight to prevent slippage.

    I'd be concerned about the size of the plate versus the size of the concrete pier. You should have a pier that is very nearly the same size as the mounting base of the scope's mount.

    An arrangement that is better than a center bolt is a four-bolt pattern. That spreads the torque from the mount base across more of the pier and prevents strain on the single mount bolt.

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  • 03-03-2008 09:34 PM In reply to

    Re: Pier Problem. Need some help

    thanks for the info. Its a 4" cast iron pier. It also has a collar at the top of the pier that is about 5" wide. Its 3 ft in the ground. With a ton of concrete around it. The threaded rod inside the pier is 3/4" and is down about 10 inches in the pier. the scope is an LXD75 SN8 with an AT66 guide scope and 3 weights. I think they are 10 lbs. Whatever comes with the Meade. I had the mount on the plate and the counterweight bar attached and it does not hit the plate.

    I dont really think I can get 4 rods in the pier.That is why I used a 3/4" threaded rod there. A bit small I guess.

     

    I'd be concerned about the size of the plate versus the size of the concrete pier. You should have a pier that is very nearly the same size as the mounting base of the scope's mount. --Its about 3" over the edge all the way around. Concern????

     thanks for the help

     

    steve

     

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  • 03-04-2008 08:07 AM In reply to

    Re: Pier Problem. Need some help

    pinkflyd34:

    I'd be concerned about the size of the plate versus the size of the concrete pier. You should have a pier that is very nearly the same size as the mounting base of the scope's mount. --Its about 3" over the edge all the way around. Concern????

    My concern is that the plate extends so far beyond the pier. It appears the pier is undersized. It sounds like you'll be putting about 60 lbs of weight on it.

    However, if your mount's base does not extend more than an inch or so beyond the diameter of the pier, it's not really a problem as long as you're not putting any significant weight on the outer edges of the plate. So, for example, if your plan is to drill holes in the plate and use them to hold eyepieces, it wouldn't be a problem. But if your mount's base is as large as that plate, then you'd be putting a lot more torque on the pier, so it would vibrate.

    If it turns out the concrete you have now is well set, and not cracked, and that the outer diameter of the pipe is about the same size as the mount base, then you might be able to get by with it as-is, simply by welding some threaded rods to the outside of the pipe and extending them up through a (smaller) flat metal plate. Or maybe simply by welding a bead all around the top of the pipe, connecting it rigidly to the plate. I don't know if that pipe will take a weld, however.

    In technical terms, the torque/moment arm on the pier decreases as the 4th power of the increase in pier diameter. Thus, doubling pier diameter decreases the torque (and therefore potential vibration) by a factor of more than 16. Conversely, if you decrease the diameter you increase the potential for vibration and instability.

    If you measure the base of the LXD75, the pier might be very close to that diameter. However, remember that is a long scope (compared to an 8" SCT, for example) and the counterweight shaft has a lot of weight on it. Therefore, the torque you put on the top of the pier is increased by the "moment arm" of the scope, and that will make it more susceptible to vibration.

    I don't know what the exact dimensions of the "golden ratio" for your setup will be. But I think it would be better if that pier were at least 6" and even better more like 8" in diameter.

    You also mentioned that the pier is "3 ft. in the ground ... with a ton of concrete around it" ... If the concrete extends to touch the surface you'll be walking/sitting on, then there's an additional source of instability.

    Given what you've told us thus far, I think if I were to fix it I'd get a 10" sonotube and put it down over the pipe and cut it level with the top of the pipe or perhaps a couple inches higher. Pull out the 3/4" threaded rod. Get six 18" long threaded rods and have the lumberyard or hardware store bend one end of each into a 1" elbow shape. Then bolt those rods into a piece of plywood, in a circular pattern midway between the outer edge of the pipe and the inner edge of the sonotube. Fill the sonotube with concrete (you'll need to brace it at the bottom to keep it from moving and leaking concrete) and then press the plywood form and bolts down into the concrete while wet. When the concrete hardens, you can remove the plywood and replace it with the metal plate. This would give you a much larger pier relative to the mount base and plate, and it will be much more stable.

    Ask someone who works with concrete for a living about this. It may be that the iron pipe should be coated with something before pouring concrete around it. They might also recommend a different mix of concrete than, say, Sakrete for such a job. I don't know about that. I do know that concrete contractors vary the mix of concrete depending on how much reinforcing iron is in the forms ...

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  • 03-04-2008 01:22 PM In reply to

    Re: Pier Problem. Need some help

     pinkflyd34,

    You could drill through the steel plate and then using concrete drill bits, drill holes for these expanding concrete anchors. Then bolt down through the plate into the anchors. They should be available at a local hardware store. I would use at least 4  3/8" bolts.

    Anchors

    JJ 

  • 03-04-2008 10:05 PM In reply to

    Re: Pier Problem. Need some help

    Jeff,

     The pier is 4" diameter, but the top where the plate sits has a bell that extends to 5 1/2 inches. I guess its the female end of the pipe. Here is an updated pic.

    You said:You also mentioned that the pier is "3 ft. in the ground ... with a ton of concrete around it" ... If the concrete extends to touch the surface you'll be walking/sitting on, then there's an additional source of instability.

    I installed those concrete cushion things..black..It can also be removed if it shakes. I was actually thinking a little bit while I was doing this! LOL

     I think my only concern at this point is the weight issue. I should be able to set everything up tomorrow. Ill keep you up to date. Thank you very much for taking the time and hope to be able to do the same for others in my position at some point in my life. Its greatly appreciated!!

     

    Steve

     

     

     

     

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    www.theurbansky.com
    Meade LXD75 SN8
    Astrotech AT66
    Meade ETX80
    Meade DSI pro 2
    Meade DSI color
    Skyscout
    Nikon 10x50 binoculars
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