Welcome to the discussion group, CuriousAquarian.

It is incumbent upon you to prove the positive side of the case.  One cannot prove a negative case, although I have pointed out some of the obvious fallacies in a few of the posts here.  A lot of people wanting to believe something does not make it true.  Science has progressed over the years.  The ancients had a far less developed understanding of the natural world.  Their conjectures (often purposely misinterpreted) are not likely to be more accurate that those of modern science.  In the meantime, hucksters are happily selling books and accepting lecture fees from credulous believers.  I kick myself for having too much integrity to become one of them.

Well personally, nothing would make me happier to find all this 2012 stuff is wrong. I dont want to believe it and have no reason to believe it other than the evidence brought forward.

The evidence being, sightings of Nibiru from SPT, Governor warnings, anciet history phophesies, dramatically changing climate, sensitive information not made available for experts to gather any conclusive information etc etc etc.

So to ask again, does the public have access to infra-red telecopes capable of taking photos or videos?

And if it can only be sighted from the South Pole atm, how long before we can see it if it is there?

If you people here with the correct equipment in the right position can say it isnt there then ill be happy with that.

CuriousAquarian:

Well personally, nothing would make me happier to find all this 2012 stuff is wrong. I dont want to believe it and have no reason to believe it other than the evidence brought forward.

The evidence being, sightings of Nibiru from SPT, Governor warnings, anciet history phophesies, dramatically changing climate, sensitive information not made available for experts to gather any conclusive information etc etc etc.

So to ask again, does the public have access to infra-red telecopes capable of taking photos or videos?

And if it can only be sighted from the South Pole atm, how long before we can see it if it is there?

If you people here with the correct equipment in the right position can say it isnt there then ill be happy with that.

Isn’t it interesting how the University of Chicago’s South Pole Telescope website makes no mention of this supposedly important discovery?  http://spt.uchicago.edu/public/science.html

What governor?

Ancient prophesies!  Why should they be seen as credible?  Get real.

What would climate change have to do with an object still tremendously distant if it exists at all?

Why must it be assumed that classified information has anything to do with this?  Even if for some odd reason the US government wanted and were able to maintain a huge conspiracy to keep something like this from the public, there are many other governments and private research facilities that would gladly spill the beans.

You seem to be laboring under a couple of delusions ...

CuriousAquarian:

... evidence brought forward ...

None of the things "brought forward" here constitute corroborated evidence (independently verified). I see you understant that in principle from your last question, which I'll address below.

The evidence being, sightings of Nibiru from SPT

Nope, not confirmed, not officially documented anywhere I can find ... there is a report (I think from last year) that an "object" that might be a candidate was discovered in infrared observations, but that was later retracted when it was found this "object" was "background IR" from distant galaxies.

... Governor warnings ...

Hmmm ... I musta missed that. What Governor? Refresh my memory ...

... anciet history phophesies ...

Purely anecdotal ... no scientific basis. If you accept that stuff, you'd have to answer Curt's (Centaur's) question about how the ancients could know this scientifically. If you're referring to the Mayas and Aztecs, then all we have to go on is the "fact" that their calendric cycle (long cycle) ends in 2012. BHD. Explain why.

... dramatically changing climate ...

Again, you must explain how and why this is related -- assuming it's correct. There is plenty of argument about it (join the Global Warming debate if you like). There is plenty of evidence it's cyclical ... so why didn't the world end or Nibiru appear on a previous cycle? What's so special about this one? In order to be taken seriously on a scientific basis, you can't simply say "because it all adds up" ... you must say what adds up, why it adds up, what mechanism causes it to be significant, etc. So far, no one is doing that. Lots of people (who as Curt points out are making money from the process -- visit the Yowusa site for examples) are saying "Wooo, lookit that ... all these signs point to 2012." ...

sensitive information not made available for experts to gather any conclusive information etc etc etc.

What, another Project Blue Book coverup theory? Scientists at the SPT are suppressing evidence? Why? What evidence? By the way, that project is supported by the National Science Foundation. I think that means the data is public. Might not hurt to check.

So to ask again, does the public have access to infra-red telecopes capable of taking photos or videos?

Well, yes and no. The public (via the investment of their tax dollars) "owns" the James Webb telescope. You could bid for time on it, or you could access its data to see if it has scanned the areas in question. If this Planet X/Nibiru/hobgoblin exists at all, and is on some trajectory that will bring it to us in 2012, then it should show up in at least some of the recent surveys. Many of those have online data stores. You should visit NASA's sites to find out.

And if it can only be sighted from the South Pole atm, how long before we can see it if it is there?

I don't know of anything that could only be seen from the South Pole. I accept the argument that a microwave telescope would have less direct interference if sited at one of the poles. But the outback of Australia is home to many radio telescopes that could be used. There is no logical reason that a planet-sized solid body (whether terrestrial silicates/iron or ices) should only be observable at microwave frequencies, so the idea that the SPT was put there to track this body seems spurious reasoning to me. If you look at the photos of the SPT dish, it's obvious it is not a high-power instrument, so it's not like they're using gigawatts of energy in some kind of long-range radar sweep.

More to your point, there is an annual swing to the precession of the Earth's poles and it tends to bring far-southerly objects into more northerly skies once a year. So, unless this object were directly above the SP and hovering below the horizon from places like Australia, I don't see any reason that it would remain "hidden" over the course of more than one year.

It's more likely that if such a body exists it is very far away, and rather small (say the size of a typical TNO/KBO/Dwarf planet) and dim, such that until it gets much closer it will not present the cross-sectional area or reflectivity to allow it to be seen.

If you people here with the correct equipment in the right position can say it isnt there then ill be happy with that.

OK, there you go. The shoe is on the wrong foot. If we're talking about discovery science here (as the woos would have us believe), then the onus is on the discoverer/theorist to support his discovery or theory scientifically (i.e., with documented, independently reproducible or falsifiable evidence). It is not our job to disprove it, though part of the scientific method is for opponents to point out weaknesses in the theory or holes in the evidence so the researcher can go back to the drawing board and possibly fill them in.

The other rather large delusion hovering over your head in this matter is that there is anyone here with the sort of equipment capable of detecting this bird. The woos would have us believe it's only detectable at infrared or microwave frequencies (none of us have that stuff). Again, the burden is not upon us to go find it, or prove it's not there. It's the woos who must convince us that it does exist, and the only way to do that is with the aforementioned (and so far sadly lacking) evidence.

 I didnt post here to start an argument, and my questions still havent been answered.  

Isn’t it interesting how the University of Chicago’s South Pole Telescope website makes no mention of this supposedly important discovery?  http://spt.uchicago.edu/public/science.html

Yes very interesting and the reason there are still so many questions.

What governor?

The Nowegian Govenor, but it has now been stated as "mis-information" and removed from their site so i cannot show you. Im sure if you look around youll find a copy of it somewhere though.

Ancient prophesies!  Why should they be seen as credible?  Get real.

Im not here to debate ancient history. To each their own with that.

What would climate change have to do with an object still tremendously distant if it exists at all?

I have no idea, im not an expert, which is why im here asking these questions.

Why must it be assumed that classified information has anything to do with this?  Even if for some odd reason the US government wanted and were able to maintain a huge conspiracy to keep something like this from the public, there are many other governments and private research facilities that would gladly spill the beans.

It doesnt have to be assumed there is a conspiracy. Im sure "most" of the information we dont have have access to would have nothing to do with this, but some might. I only came to the conclusion information was being withheld because finding any legitimate pictures of that area of the sky arent available, they have all been edited, and the ones that havent people say are fake. Also the ancient artifacts relating to this are not available to scrutinze, and even official places like this refuse to answer my questions.

So agaian do any of you have infra-red telescopes which are able to take photos or videos?

Are any of you in the vicinity of the South Pole who can confirm there is nothing there?

Thats all I want to know.

Again, I think you're missing something important here.

A. There has been no announcement of such a discovery. If there had been such a discovery, and it was confirmed, then what is the rationale for failing to announce it? The onus is on the discoverer to back up the data.

B. There are lots of reasons why people retract announcements. It is not my job to go find out why. Especially if there is no evidence to back up the original claim. See below.

CuriousAquarian:

 ... my questions still havent been answered. 

Well, I honestly tried. Lemme try again:

 

Isn’t it interesting how the University of Chicago’s South Pole Telescope website makes no mention of this supposedly important discovery?  http://spt.uchicago.edu/public/science.html

Yes very interesting and the reason there are still so many questions.

One very reasonable answer to the question is that there has been no such discovery, or that it has not been confirmed and the researchers are awaiting confirmation before announcing the discovery. I have not heard of either from any credible source. See the aforementioned woos.

What governor?

The Nowegian Govenor, but it has now been stated as "mis-information" and removed from their site so i cannot show you. Im sure if you look around youll find a copy of it somewhere though.

Again, not my job, but I'm inclined to try. Maybe a Google search will turn up something? Nah, not interested. UPDATE: I found it. If you want a real laugh (or cry) Google Project Camelot and you'll find an asinine "video letter" allegedly from some (unnamed, of course) "Norwegian politician" who is warning us all to take to caves in our biosuits before 2011 and stay there for five years so as to survive the coming Niburu/Planet X calamity. No evidence whatsoever is offered. Someone with video editing equipment simply had too much time on his/her hands. Woo. Woo, woo, woo.

Ancient prophesies!  Why should they be seen as credible?  Get real.

Im not here to debate ancient history. To each their own with that.

Well the only "documented" evidence about 2012 is that the Mayan calendric cycle does, in fact, end in 2012. You don't need to go to the Vatican to find that out. Still, it means zip, scientifically.

What would climate change have to do with an object still tremendously distant if it exists at all?

I have no idea, im not an expert, which is why im here asking these questions.

Well, SOMEBODY linked it into the argument, so it either needs to be dropped, or validated. Again, not for us to do ... we're not the ones proposing this weirdness. I take it you are not, either. In which case, why bring it up?

... I only came to the conclusion information was being withheld because finding any legitimate pictures of that area of the sky arent available, they have all been edited, and the ones that havent people say are fake. 

Whoa, whoa, whoa ... you need to be specific. There are LOTS of surveys including infrared and microwave, of most of the sky. Which specific areas can't you find? Where have you looked?

Also the ancient artifacts relating to this are not available to scrutinze, and even official places like this refuse to answer my questions.

Ah, yes, the old "burned Codex" problem. Well, it so happens there is general agreement among scholars that the Mayan calendric cycle (long cycle) ends in 2012. Once again, I say, Big Hairy Deal. We might as well be dealing with Nostradamus here, eh? Or Harry the Rat, who prognosticates before every race at Belmont, if our aim is to get rich? I wonder which has the better track record (groan).

So agaian do any of you have infra-red telescopes which are able to take photos or videos?

Again, no. And, besides, they need to be in orbit.

Are any of you in the vicinity of the South Pole who can confirm there is nothing there?

Again, that's not how it works. The proposer provides the RA/DEC, magnitude, and multiple sightings thereof, so an orbit can be calculated. The Minor Planet Center then releases the info to other researchers who attempt to confirm/deny. We do not do that here, and none of us work for those agencies.

Thats all I want to know.

I apologize if you feel you've had a harsh reception. It's not all your fault. It's the woos who got you into this, no?

So thats a "no" and you dont have the necesary equipment and noone here is in the vicinity to verify that it isnt there.

Thants all I wanted to know.

Thanks for your time answering.

And to be honest (before I go again), ummm, its people like you (chipdatajeffB) who get to me.

I find it quite annoying when I cant get a straight answer and am met with instant skeptism. Its not a problem questioning peoples posts but when you imply they are wrong its good to have some facts that go with it, not just your opinions.

You obviously cant prove its not there and yet are so quick to tell people its not, when you yourself have no proof except for a SP website that has been discredited for its lack of public information.

So no this forum wasnt the warmest welcome Ive received but hey I learned what I wanted to know and appriciate that for whats it worth.

Thanks again, sorry you couldnt disprove it though, I was really hoping you could.

LOL

This thread is a joke, do not take seriously.

Besides, everyone knows the real end of the world is 2027, when the reptilicons arrive

;)

Well I'm sorry you feel that way.

The problem is that you've fallen into the trap these woos set for you. Their MO is all about making a big uproar and waiting for someone to prove them wrong. That is not -- and Curt pointed this out early on -- how it works!

In science, as opposed to lunacy, you support your thesis with evidence, you seek confirmation of it, and in doing so you provide the means for the idea to be validated or falsified.

That's just the way it works. If you approach it any other way, you're going to get criticism. I don't mean it personally. It's your method I'm criticizing, not you as a person.

As Curt said, you can't prove a negative. I can't prove it's not there. To do that I'd have to generate an iron-clad survey of the entire sky, at all wavelengths, at all energy levels. A woo would then say, "You missed a spot" or "It's not close enough yet" or something similar.

That is why the scientific method is the way it is.

Period.

Without evidence, we must consider the source. Did you actually look at those Websites? Sheesh. I wouldn't want to be grouped with those folks ...

Telenoob, you have an excellent point.

I broke my own rule here and spent way too much time on a thread which is complete nonsense.

The moderators have been discussing several of these threads recently. Isn't it odd that the ones that cause us so much angst, that get tempers going, and that waste time for the staff are ALL in the Off-topic forum?

OK, this thread is locked. I will instantly lock any additional Niburu/PlanetX/2012 threads as I encounter them. Members are encouraged to search the community for the ones that are already in here. Their number is legion ...