De-e-e-e-p breath.

I know this is anathema to most of you.  The rational (who I think predominate here) will ignore it and the religious (who are a strong minority) will see it as irrelevant, but I’m hoping there are enough open minds out there to consider possibilities.

Is this on-topic?  Is it a legitimate concern for those interested in astronomy?  Well, considering that one of the reasons we study other stars is that we hope to discover other life, it certainly seems to be.

Is this frivolous?  Considering the number of UFO sightings and the tortured history of such in the US, I don’t think so --- as long as we all understand that UFO has a literal meaning: Unidentified Flying Object.  Period.  Everything you see in the sky that you can’t identify is a UFO.  Maybe you see a bright planet, like Venus or Jupiter, in an otherwise dark sky, and it seems to move, and you don’t know what it is.  That, to you, is a UFO.

To someone else, it is completely explainable.

I want to put those who see objects in the sky that they can’t identify in contact with those who can --- and I want to filter out the rest.

Why?  Because we may, in fact, be visited by beings from other worlds --- or we may be observing phenomena of legitimate interest to science.  To be sure, alien spacecraft would be of great interest, but as Carl Sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  What many perceive as alien spacecraft may be perfectly ordinary phenomena.

So, have you see anything REALLY strange?

C’mon, people.  You’re looking here.  You’re observers of the sky --- amateur astronomers.   Some of you have seen things you can’t identify, as I have.  Look a few pages back in this forum and find “My first UFO” and you’ll read what I experienced.  You’ll also read how I made a sincere and energetic effort to identify what I saw.

Again, I’m not claiming to have seen “flying saucers” or any kind of extraterrestrial craft, but I saw something very odd that I couldn’t explain.  I’ve been a sky watcher for at least 4 decades and that was a first.  I’m not young enough or dumb enough to claim that I saw a flying saucer from another world.  I simply saw an Unidentified Flying Object, an object in the sky that did not appear to be any ordinary phenomenon.  I would welcome any explanation of what I saw, but to date none has emerged.

So let’s talk about this.  In science nothing is forbidden, nothing is unmentionable

OK Spacer. I'll start but first a minor editorial.

I dislike the term UFO. Unidentified Flying Object is an illogical phrase that identifies the Object as an object excluding the possibility of process such as a mirage. It further defines the Object as flying, implying Technology.

I prefer the term Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon or something along that line.

Twice in my life I saw something in the sky that, at first, triggered the thought. The first turned out to be a very bright, very slow meteor. The second was more interesting.

I was walking home on a summer night, looking up as usual, when I spotted a large glowing object through some trees. I continued watching, waiting for a break in the branches so I could see the thing completely. When I did I still wasn't sure what I was  seeing. The object was apparenly only 2 or 3 times the height of the trees, oblong in shape and glowing from within through a translucent outer membrane.

I'll admit the thought entered my head 'I'm really seeing one!' Seconds later it passed overhead and I could plainly see what it was - a blimp, lit from inside - obviously part of the airshow we have every year.

Just for the record I don't believe we have been or are being visited by ET, et al. Nor do I think there is anything but the slightest chance we ever will be.

"So, have you see anything REALLY strange?"

Yes, for about 10 seconds. It occurred on a warm night during the spring of 1958 when I was 12. I awoke around midnight and went to get a glass of milk. While I was in the kitchen I peered through the screen door facing south to get a brief look at the night sky. I was stunned by a brilliant white object hovering nearly half way up from the southern point on the horizon toward the zenith. It was much brighter than any fixed star. As a fledgling amateur astronomer, I knew it could not be Venus, since Venus is never out at midnight. I quickly ran to my room to get my telescope that I had received for Christmas. I hurriedly set it up in our yard and aimed at the UFO. After taking a moment to focus, my heart began pounding as I spied a mother ship surrounded by four scouts! My great excitement lasted for about 10 seconds - until I realized that for the first time in my life I had detected Jupiter and its four large satellites. Actually, though, that discovery left me with the same warm glow that Galileo must have experienced when he first trained his scope on the king of the planets.

Supposed extraterrestrials would be (by definition) totally unrelated to any creatures that evolved on our planet. Today's surviving species on Earth generally exist because they were better competitors who often eliminated other species. Genocide has existed from human pre-history right up to the present day. That's not to mention what our genes motivate us to do to distantly related species. Bacterial DNA would be considerably more similar to our own than that of any extraterrestrial. Genes are selfish; those that were not, quickly became extinct. If technological ET species actually exist, one among them at some point in its history might have a proactive leader who decides (out of fear, caution, machismo or wisdom) to preemptively eliminate us as potential competitors. The fact that this has not yet happened argues that advanced ET's do not exist, and that Enrico Fermi may have been posing a reasonable question when he asked, "Where are they?" 

The universe is estimated to be aged 13.7 billion years. If another civilization within our galaxy were advanced over ours by a mere one-tenth of one percent of that time, they would be ahead of us by 13.7 million years. It would be amazing if the first two intra-galactic species to achieve our level of sophistication did so with a smaller time difference than that. We've seen no evidence of greatly advanced ET's who might be performing marvelous feats such as harnessing the energy of their home stars. Although, as previously stated, if they actually existed they may have eradicated us as vermin before we could hold this discussion. It's been estimated that the first species to venture into space within our galaxy would colonize the entire galaxy in less than 2 million years. I suspect that we are in first place and will be the ones colonizing the galaxy before any potential rival ET species leaves its caves.

Yes, the natural evolution of life toward a technological civilization is possible. Yet it may be improbable that in a mere 13.7 billion years all of the hurdles have been surmounted more than once. But it did happen. It had to happen, or we wouldn’t be conducting this academic exercise. And if it happened only once, then we’re the fortunate participants. Let’s be grateful for what we humans have accomplished unaided, and not be wishing that some supposedly well meaning ET species spoonfeeds us the secrets of nature and life as though we were Eloi. Hopes for beneficent extraterrestrials becoming our mentors may be a product of the same mindset that causes the deeply religious to pray for a messiah.   

The book Extraterrestrials, Where Are They? is a most interesting collection of articles with a mixture of opinions inspired by Fermi's Paradox. Click the link below for more information:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521443350/curtrenz-20

Or, they could be millions of years ahead of us and see us merely as we see ants.  They could be studying us to see how we parallel their evolution.  They would be wise enough not to contact us for fear it would upset our society and culture (which it certainly would). 

Or not. 

There is really no way to know until we are advanced enough to get out there and have a real look around.

 

Uranut,

Thank you for your input.  I agree 100% about the name:  UFO implies a physical object, when it's apparent that the overwhelming majority of UFOs are astronomical objects or aerial phenomena.

About 25 years ago some local police chased a UFO through the night sky. There was a big to-do about it.  It turned out to be Venus, and the cops succumbed to the well-known illusion that a bright light in a dark background seems to move.

Until recently the only time I've been really puzzled was when I saw a bright, silvery object seeming to tumble across the sky.  I stopped my car and got out.  Like you, I thought, “Oh, boy, I’m finally getting to see one!”  One I got a good look at it, though, I realized it was one of those small, triangular, silvery helium balloons, slowly turning in the afternoon sun.

 However, I can’t agree that there’s almost no chance that we have been or will be visited by alien spacecraft.  The odds are overwhelmingly in favor of there being spacegoing civilizations within our galaxy and it seems entirely possible, even likely, that we have been observed by others.

 Please notice that I’m not saying that the skies are filled with alien spacecraft.  It’s unfortunate that I must emphasize that so strongly, but that’s the state of the field today.

 The bottom line, as I’ve said, is that something decidedly odd is going on, and that is a legitimate area of investigation.

Centaur,

 That’s a wonderful story!  I’m about your age, and although my 1^st view of Jupiter’s bright moons occurred much later I was equally awed by the sight that first entranced Galileo.   

 Your comments about our DNA’s attempt to defend and preserve itself seem a little extreme, though.  Genes may be selfish but there is a built-in recognition that all life (at least on this planet!) is somehow related.  We humans may kill for pleasure but most animals do not --- to them, it’s a matter of survival or defense.  We don’t seek to eradicate genes, only to perpetuate our own inheritance.  After all, much of the life on this world, especially our close relatives, share our genetic inheritance.

 It seems we disagree on the likelihood that life can evolve and further evolve intelligence that leads to technology.  I think, entirely without evidence for or against, that life is common, and that intelligent, technological life occurs given half a chance. I think that such life is common enough that there are a number of species who could and would communicate with us.

 Again --- and again, and again, and again --- I don’t claim that this is so.  I just don’t know.  Nobody does.  And I don’t claim any metaphysical meaning for ET.  FWIW, I’m quite proud of our species for what we’ve accomplished and I have every confidence that we are up to the challenge of building a stable interplanetary and even interstellar society,

“Or, they could be millions of years ahead of us and see us merely as we see ants.  They could be studying us to see how we parallel their evolution.  They would be wise enough not to contact us for fear it would upset our society and culture (which it certainly would). “

jsm,

You’re almost certainly correct.  If ETs are observing us, that’s probably how they see things.  I’ve often pointed out that it is exactly the course we would follow if we could travel to other stars and observe other civilizations.  I think that this is most likely the answer to Fermi’s Paradox.

However ---- are we being visited, do you think?  Or are we involved in some sociological phenomenon about alien visitation?  Either way, as I attempted to indicate from the outset, it’s well worth exploring.  Already I’m seeing presumption in the postings here.  I’m looking for a discussion of the phenomenon itself, not necessarily a discussion of the possible implications of contact with alien beings.

As a long-time science-fiction fan, I’m more than ready and willing to discuss alien contact, but right now I want to explore the UFO phenomenon.

I strongly suspect Life is a common occurence in the Universe. In fact, I'll be very surprised if life is not discovered on at least one other body in the Solar system.

When it comes to other technologically advanced life I am quite skeptical. I believe that ET et al are replacements for the benevolent angels and/or malevolent  demons of our ancestors.

Our knowledge of the chemistry and physics of the universe makes life seem almost inevitable under the proper conditions and those conditions would seem to be fairly common. Our knowledge of the rise of technology is resticted to one genus (Homo) on one planet. To extrapolate a universe filled with such civilizations from such meager facts is highly speculative (forgive me Dr. Sagan).

There is a book entitled 'Rare Earth' which I read several years ago ( I'm sorry I do not remember the author's name - almost my entire library was destroyed a few years ago and that is one of many books I have not yet replaced). Although the book contains some inaccurate astronomical statements I highly recommend it. The basic theme is 'Maybe life on Earth got some fortuitous breaks along the way'.

So do any of you all believe in other more advanced civilizations in other worlds excluding our own?

   I have a good story to share as well. It was early in the morning around 5:30 am, I went outside to go to my friends house so we could finish our project before we had to go to the bus stop. It was really dark and cloudy outside. As I was walking down the sidewalk, I looked up, and saw a dim LARGE circle of light at first. I started thinking, and later the light got brighter and was scattered through the clouds. I went and got my friend, and he saw it too. We were looking at it about to piss our pants! About 5 minutes later, the clouds drifted away a little bit, and we realized it was just the Moon!

BTW, I completely believe in other life in the Universe.

Think of it this way:

If we are the only intelligent life form in this Universe, don't you think it's a big waste of space?

Dave

I have a point to make, this will be short. Our universe is Extremely Huge and if we are the only living planet then it seems like a major waste of space so do I believe in others living in other galaxys then Yes but I dont think They are Highly advanced. They may be as smart as us or maybe even a vegtable lol.

                                           Chad

Cosmo-David said:

"If we are the only intelligent life form in this Universe, don't you think it's a big waste of space?"

There's a lot of space! I don't mind wasting it.

LOL!!

Chad,

I agree with you on that part, but what if those life forms were older than our civilization. If you believe in life through out the universe, then you must surely believe that the human- race is not the oldest civilization. Some might be very highly advanced and others could be at the point where Earth was during the Dinosour Era.

If a couple of people reported this phenomena, I would understand if others didn't believe it. But millions a year report this phenomena. Crop circles, are just amazing. No human could do such a thing.

Finding other life would be Man's greatest accoplishment. But due to religion, it will never happen in peace and the government will hide it up!

Dave

Here's another story:  many years ago I was flying a small airplane from Davenport, Iowa back to Indiana.  I'd been flying all day and as I took off the Sun was setting.  The sky was clear and the visibility was almost unlimited.  Below me the setting sun was shining on the metal roofs of farm buildings, making them glow red against the dark land.  It was a magical experience, befitting the end of a wonderful day.

As I approached  the south end of Lake Michigan I saw a huge orange arc on the eastern horizon.  Always alert to the possible presence of other aircraft, I watched it closely. I couldn't understand what I was seeing and that worried me.   The arc slowly grew  into a semi-circle and with a sense of both relief and amazement I realized I was seeing the rise of a full Moon.

The point of this story and others on this thread is that regardless of our training we often see the unexplained in the sky.  It nearly always turns out to be something completely normal seen under abnormal conditions. But sometimes it isn't.

There's a solid core of UFO reports, maybe as much as 10%, that defy explanation. Most of them are probably natural phenomena. But there are, for example, visible UFOs that have been tracked on radar.  Ball lightning, maybe?  But even military pilots have reported metallic objects that behave in ways that no known aircraft can match.  What are we to make of them?
     
 

OK Spacer,

When you make quantitative statements in these forums you should be prepared to support them. What's your basis for the 'solid core, maybe 10%'.

I see that figure everywhere and the only basis I know for it is the old Project Bluebook which was able to prove that  about 90% of the reported sightings were frauds, hoaxes or mistaken identity. Only a fanatic could interpret that as '10% are real'.

Let's approach this logically.

If  ET is visiting us regularly he must be far more technologically advanced than we are. If he is far more advanced than we are why is he afraid to make contact? If he avoids making contact for some high moral principle (the famous non-interference argument) why are there so many sightings?



Cosmo-David,

Crop Circles???? Puh-lease!!!!!!

Those who enjoy this type of discussion may want to check out the following links:

http://www.skepticforum.com/

http://www.badastronomy.com/

 

I've twice seen unexplainable objects in the sky.The first was in the san fernando valley ca.While driving towards the 101 freeway I observed a solid appearing disk that revolved up/down/ side to side.in one place. On every third or fourth revolution , as  it turned sideways it would disappear for about 30 seconds then reappear from on edge and do the revolutions. As I drove close to where it hovered over I observed what appeared to be some kind of teardrop shaped  cockpit towards one edge. no markings or other features.I watched  it from about a mile away to aproximatly couple hundred yards.

The second was fourth of july two years ago My wife and I watched two lights manuver around each other in a large half circle then both speed off to the south.( this may have been military jets but there was no sound )

Never once in my years of sky observation have I observed an Unidentified Flying Object. Nor ever have I seen an Unidentified Crawling Object nor an Unidentified Ambulating Object nor an Unidentified Permeating Extra Dimensional Object. Not one of any means of locomotion have I gazed upon. I say balderdash to those who claim they have. It is not that the phenomenon is unexplainable, but that the real explanation has escaped the "observer". I have personally investigated some of those that have "seen" and find their claims to be "the perfect vacuum".

Centaur,

Thanx for the links. I visit BadAstronomy frequently but Skeptics is new to me.

Starramus,

Tell us what you really think!

Uranut,

I read that book, but I didn't realize it was such a widely-quoted figure.  I don't hang out in UFO circles.  Anyway, please note that I said that the 10% had no explanation, NOT that 10% are real flying saucers.  But there are sightings that have been confirmed by radar, and I don’t think radar has any opinions about it.

Yes, let’s be logical.  Why are there so many sightings?  Mostly, I think, it’s a fad.  Once the idea comes into people’s heads that there are alien spacecraft in our skies, they tend to interpret anything they don’t see as a UFO, by which they mean flying saucers.  Why (hypothetical) real aliens would allow themselves to be seen has many possible answers.  Maybe they would know that we’re aware of their presence or at least of the possibility of their presence, but aren’t quite ready for direct contact.  Maybe it’s all a “X-Files” conspiracy.  Maybe if we tried to imagine what we would do if we were the aliens observing someone else’s world we could answer your question.