.....a tough object to view. I've never tried to find this object until tonite and I had a pretty rough time. Looking in the constellation Taurus, off the the star Zeta Tauri, I found what looked like a very, very, very pale cloud. Using a wide range of magnifaction, I really couldn't bring this into view, at least not viewable enough to conclude that I was actually looking at M1. Is it possible I just didn't find M1 or is that about all I should expect to see? I really hope not but I have read other post that suggest various filters. May need to look into that but more importantly, I need to verify that what I was viewing was actually M1.

8" Reflector, 203mm aperture, 1000mm FL, F/4.9

Rayfield

Hey, Rayfield,

M1 does look like a pale cloud in medium sized scopes; actually it resembles a pale, frozen turkey.

If your skies are light polluted or if the moon is out (it is just about full now), M-1 can be hard to see. You generally won't see the structure that gives M-1 it's well known name of the Crab nebula.

My guess is that you actually saw it; an O111 or UHC filter should help in seeing this.

QUOTE: Originally posted by gamaray123

Hey, Rayfield,

M1 does look like a pale cloud in medium sized scopes; actually it resembles a pale, frozen turkey.

If your skies are light polluted or if the moon is out (it is just about full now), M-1 can be hard to see. You generally won't see the structure that gives M-1 it's well known name of the Crab nebula.

My guess is that you actually saw it; an O111 or UHC filter should help in seeing this.


Aye, the moon was just rising over the tree line when I was viewing this. And yes, I have neighbors on either side of me with lights a blazing. Actually, light pollution isn't to bad but with a near full moon, your more than likely right, gonna make this difficult to see. I guess I'll try this one again without the moon so bright and if that doesn't help much I'll try the filters or a darker site. Thanks.

Rayfield

When I first saw M1 I was dissapointed. But most of all I was just happy I found it. I didn't want it to be M1 at first, but alas it was. Once I looked at it again, it actually is fun to see on a nice night. Just moving around and seeing this "cloud" move into view was fun for me. I am almost positive you know more than me on astronomy, and have gotten many objects under your belt. But from what I've heard it only gets fainter from here. I haven't seen this through a filter yet so I don't know what it looks like.
-Zack

Yup you got it. M1 is a difficult object for many. It suffers easily from a bright sky. The fact that you caught it at all with the Moon as bright as it is, is a testament to your eyes.

I volunteer at an international Highschool close to my home. They have an observatory on campus that houses a 25" Eq Newtonian. Early in the year the students were learning to use the digital setting circles and were trying to find M1. (Probably because it was first on the list.) This was a poor choice because it was low in the sky and situated over the sky glow of Victoria 30 miles to the East. As I went into the dome I heard them saying the DSC weren't working because they couldn't see M1. I climbed the ladder and had a look in the EP. Yup there it was. They just couldn't notice it because of the washed out sky and the object just blended in. This was with a 25" scope.

Try on a darker night and you will probably notice it more. Just don't expect to see much detail. This is and object that takes quite a bit of aperture to see much structure if any in it.

Bill

I have never been impressed with M1 visually and I've seen it through 20 inch and larger telescopes when it was near the zenith.

Dave Mitsky

I'll add that through large apertures under good conditions, a characteristic "S" shape can be discerned but that's about it as far as my experience goes.

Dave Mitsky

With my 4.5" it is not very spectacular, it just appears as a faint patch of light with no structure. What I like about it is that you are looking at a piece of human history.

Andreas

I had always wondered how this got to be the first object on Messier's list, but I believe it was much brighter in his time. Is this true? If so, how much brighter was it?

M1 can be rather disapointing, but on many nights, I have detected a nice webby structure to it. First time I saw that I was quite impressed! I have taken a bit of a liking to it lately.

QUOTE: Originally posted by curiousastronomer

I had always wondered how this got to be the first object on Messier's list, but I believe it was much brighter in his time. Is this true? If so, how much brighter was it?


Chalres Messier discovered M1 serendipitously while observing, what else, a comet. Here's an article on Messier that I wrote for the ASH newsletter "Stardust" many years ago:

The French astronomer Charles Messier was born in Lorraine on June 26, 1730. When Charles was 11 his father died and, being the tenth of twelve children, Messier consequently had little opportunity for formal education. As a boy he developed an avid interest in astronomy after seeing the brilliant six-tailed comet of 1744.

Even though Messier came from a poor family and had limited schooling he was hired at the age of 21 as a draftsman by Joseph-Nicholas de l'Isle, Astronomer to the French Navy. Messier soon learned to use astronomical instruments and became a skilled observer. He was promoted to clerk at the Marine Observatory at the Hotel de Cluny in Paris by the mid-1750's. Edmund Halley had predicted that the comet of 1682 would return in late 1758 or early 1759. Using charts that de l'Isle had prepared, albeit incorrectly, Messier began searching for the comet with a small reflector. On January 21, 1759 he located the comet but de l'Isle initially refused to let Messier announce his discovery. (As fate would have it the comet was first sighted on Christmas Night of 1758 by a German farmer and amateur astronomer named Palitzch.) Undaunted by the embarrassment of the late announcement, Messier from that time onward devoted himself to searching for comets. In the coming years he became the most accomplished comet observer of his time, claiming to have found 21 by 1798.

Charles Messier used over a dozen telescopes during his career but his favorite was a 7.5 inch 104x Gregorian reflector. Later when the achromatic refractor became available he utilized several 3.5 inch 120x achromatics.

On August 28, 1758 Messier found by chance a small nebulous, or cloudy, object in the constellation of Taurus while observing a comet he had discovered two weeks earlier. This object, a supernova remnant known today as the Crab Nebula (M1), was later to become the first entry on a list of comet-like objects that eventually became the most famous catalog of galaxies, nebulae, and star clusters in astronomy.

Ironically, Messier became famous historically for his catalog of time-wasting "objects to avoid" while comet hunting and not for the comets he discovered. Messier became the chief astronomer of the Marine Observatory in 1759. He was elected to the Royal Society of London in 1764 and the Paris Academy of Sciences in 1770.

During a seven month period of searching for comets in 1764 Messier added 38 objects to his list including the great globular cluster M13 in Hercules, the Swan Nebula (M17) in Sagittarius, and the Andromeda Galaxy (M31). In January of the following year he logged M41, an open cluster southwest of Sirius. Messier determined the positions of the Orion Nebula (M42 and M43), the Beehive Cluster (M44), and the Pleiades (M45) on March 4, 1769.

Messier also began compiling reports of discoveries by other astronomers. In fact, only 17 of the 45 objects in the first installment of Messier's catalog, published in 1774, were discovered by Messier himself. (The first object that Messier is given credit for discovering is the globular cluster M3, which was first located on May 3, 1764.) By 1780 the number of objects in his catalog had increased to 80.

Because of Messier's undeniable success as a comet hunter King Louis XV of France nicknamed him the "Ferret of Comets". But Messier was no mathematician and relied on his aristocratic friend Bouchart de Saron, who was the President of the French Assembly, to compute the orbits of his comets. Messier also collaborated with the younger astronomer and comet hunter Pierre Francois Andre Mechain, who was also a successful comet hunter. During 1780 and 1781 he discovered some 32 new nebulous objects and reported their positions to Messier. Mechain was the first astronomer to note the profusion of nebulae in Coma Berenices and Virgo. Messier recorded 9 new nebulae in this region in a single night on March 18, 1781.

On April 13, 1781 Messier added the one hundredth object to the catalog. Three subsequent observations by Mechain were included hastily without verification and what was to be the final revision of the catalog was published in 1781. Forty of the 103 objects listed had been discovered by Messier and 27 by Mechain. In November of 1781 Messier suffered a severe fall and further work on his catalog was ended.

During his convalescence Messier was provided for by President de Saron and members of the Academie Royale. After a year of recuperating Messier made preparations to study the transit of Mercury and began observing William Herschel's newly discovered planet Uranus, as well as searching for more comets.

The French Revolution was a disastrous period for Messier and his compatriots. In 1794 Messier lost his Academie pension and naval salary and the navy stopped paying the rent on his observatory. President de Saron, the talented mathematician who was one of the first men to realize that Uranus was in fact a planet, was guillotined a few days after computing the orbit of a comet that Messier had discovered the previous year. Mechain lost his estate and all of his savings. With the coming of Napoleon Bonaparte the lives of Messier and Mechain improved greatly. Mechain was made the director of the Paris Observatory and both he and Messier were admitted to the new Academy of Sciences and the Bureau of Longitudes. Messier received the cross of the Legion of Honor from Napoleon himself.

Messier made his last discovery in 1798. He continued to observe until he suffered a debilitating stroke. Two years later on April 12, 1817 he died at the age of 86.

In the twentieth century 7 objects known to have been logged by Messier were added to the Messier Catalog. M110, the final entry, was added in 1967. Today it is known that M40 is merely a binary star and M73 is just an asterism. M102 is thought to be a duplication of M101, but NGC 5866 is often accepted as being M102. The true identity of M91 is also questionable. Because of an error in their coordinates, M47 and M48 were at one time deemed to be "lost" Messier objects. Messier neglected to include a number of bright deep-sky objects in his catalog, the Double Cluster (NGC 869 and NGC 884) being one obvious example. Charles Messier was limited as a scientist but he was an astute observational astronomer who studied sunspots, eclipses, and occultations in addition to discovering many comets and nebulous objects. He was so totally dedicated to astronomy that when his wife lay dying it was with the greatest reluctance that he left his telescope to be at her side.

Messier's lasting legacy to amateur astronomy, the Messier Catalog, includes most of the best deep sky objects visible in the northern hemisphere.

Dave Mitsky

Very nice read Dave, I enjoyed it. It is quite impressive that he became the cheif astronomer of the Marine Observatory at age 29.

There is a article in this months Sky & Telescope regarding M102. Their conclusion is that it is a second entry for M101 and that it's association with NGC 5866 should be ended. Any thoughts?

Andreas

Stephen O'Meara's article on this somewhat controversial subject was well-reasoned. For more on the subject see http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m102d.html

Dave Mitsky

Here are Messier's notes on M1:

1. 5h 20m 02s (80d 00' 33") +21d 45' 17"
(September 12, 1758) `Nebula above the southern horn of Taurus, it doesn't contain any star; it is a whitish light, elongated in the shape of a flame of a candle, discovered while observing the comet of 1758. See the chart of that comet, Mem. Acad. of the year 1759, page 188; observed by Dr. Bevis in about 1731. It is reported on the English Celestial Atlas.'
[A note in Messier's handwriting added in the margin of his copy of the Connoissance des Temps for 1783 reads:] `This nebula reported on the great English atlas: Seen by Dr Bevis about 1731. according to his letter written to me on 10th June 1771.'

Dave MItsky

I beleive i have seen it 2 times before. 1 is for sure, the other I am not so sure. The first time I was looking for it through my 25x100 binos, after 30mins of concentration, no moon, little light pollution, i believed i saw, i had to look of to the side alot before i thought i saw, and it basically looked like a pale, pale, very pale blob of light. The 2nd time i know i saw it and was looking through my 12" lx200gps and there was no moon, definately more shape and somewhat brighter.

QUOTE: Originally posted by mstshtml

I beleive i have seen it 2 times before. 1 is for sure, the other I am not so sure. The first time I was looking for it through my 25x100 binos, after 30mins of concentration, no moon, little light pollution, i believed i saw, i had to look of to the side alot before i thought i saw, and it basically looked like a pale, pale, very pale blob of light. The 2nd time i know i saw it and was looking through my 12" lx200gps and there was no moon, definately more shape and somewhat brighter.


Did you notice a web type structure through your 12" like maddcow mentioned? That would be really cool. The reason i ask you this is because the LX200 12" may be my next scope.

Rayfield

i dont remember, i would have to say no, but there was ALOT of atmospheric turbulance that night. But the 12" Lx200 is an awsome telescope. Especially if you are going to start of with photography. anyway, next clear night, which doesnt look for good for a while, i will look again for you and post it here.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rayfield

QUOTE: Originally posted by mstshtml

I beleive i have seen it 2 times before. 1 is for sure, the other I am not so sure. The first time I was looking for it through my 25x100 binos, after 30mins of concentration, no moon, little light pollution, i believed i saw, i had to look of to the side alot before i thought i saw, and it basically looked like a pale, pale, very pale blob of light. The 2nd time i know i saw it and was looking through my 12" lx200gps and there was no moon, definately more shape and somewhat brighter.


Did you notice a web type structure through your 12" like maddcow mentioned? That would be really cool. The reason i ask you this is because the LX200 12" may be my next scope.

Rayfield

In my scope, the webby structure was subtle, but it was definately there. When I saw it I was like "Whoa!" having never seen detail in M1 before. But seeing as it was just on the edge of visibility, I would say that it probably won't be visible in a 12". But, you still should be able to make out some detail. You would also want to wait till a night with good seeing, because this detail is fairly angularly small.
Good luck with your future scope!